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    Thread: ki shusui project with a twist :)

    1. #41
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Ki shusui project Sept. 20, 2009.

      Here's an update on the ki shusi project.
      Well, we don't call this amateur breeders' forum for nothing. a real breeder would be selecting two successful breeder males and a female for a project like this. I'm putting the fish into the pond that may make the elusive ki-shusui and i have added THE LAST NEW FISH. you heard it. Last ones.

      Pictured below:
      1 18" d. lemon hariwake. (he is a bit goldenrod-colored for some, but he has gone more lemon in the week and a half he has been in the pond.)
      2 9" d. yellow ogons
      1 9" d. l. hariwake
      1 11" d. l hariwake
      2 9" midori

      scrolling down, see 1 22" female shusui. She is a little thin, but is beefing up considerably in the pond on EA Health and whatever bugs are available.

      This last batch of new koi have not spawned and so the fry you see pictured here are from the three spawns of the koi at the top of this thread, mostly from the second spawn of the doitsu lemon hariwakes.

      i have noticed new small fry, but too young to photograph now.
      Attached Images Attached Images                
      Last edited by Koigrl; 11-22-2010 at 02:42 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    2. #42
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      more fry pictures :)

      more fry pictures
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      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    3. #43
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      looking good!! Love the lake! Have you seen the one lately??
      Watch your thoughts; they become words.
      Watch your words; they become actions.
      Watch your actions; they become habits.
      Watch your habits; they become character.
      Watch your character; it becomes your destiny.

      Dustin

    4. #44
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      a few more plus

      a few more fry plus big guy's colors in morning light.
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      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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    5. #45
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      hi, dustin! yes. i have seen him. i think that's him in that last little portrait. i'm doing best i can with point-and-shoot camera with delay as it tries to focus in the dark. (!) i think my life is about shooting pics of the fry twice a day. does that mean i'm fry-kichi?



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Dan, talked to my fish hatchery friend who says the fry will do very well in the mud over winter. not the kind of situation as in a liner pond.
      your ponds are looking good and your project is interesting.....and like we discussed in the pm, your fish hatchery friend knows way more than i do about overwintering koi in the mud....so carry on..........thanks for the updates.....and yes i think you are fri kichi
      DAN







    7. #47
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      Fry this evening.

      Finally got some good light.
      Attached Images Attached Images           



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    8. #48
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      hello, super kindai if you are passing through.

      Hi, Super Kindai,
      If you could, i would love to learn from you about my fry.

      could you tell me what to look for as the koi grow and how to choose fry to keep?
      also, can you tell me about the red ones, what you think they are? also the ones that are kind of a translucent white.

      if it is meaningful, the parent hariwakes are from yamasan, the midoris and aya wakabas are from yamanaka oya, one of the shusuis is from suda and another from quality koi, who tell me that the parents came from sakai. the misc. ogons and second shusui are 'niigata.'

      my thanks.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    9. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Hi, Super Kindai,
      If you could, i would love to learn from you about my fry.

      could you tell me what to look for as the koi grow and how to choose fry to keep?
      also, can you tell me about the red ones, what you think they are? also the ones that are kind of a translucent white.

      if it is meaningful, the parent hariwakes are from yamasan, the midoris and aya wakabas are from yamanaka oya, one of the shusuis is from suda and another from quality koi, who tell me that the parents came from sakai. the misc. ogons and second shusui are 'niigata.'

      my thanks.
      Hi, koigrl.

      Where should I start? .... It is said that originally Ki-shusui ( with navy-blue color scales ) and Doitsu Ki-matuba (with black color scales) were by-product of midorigoi breeding which was crossed a Shusui with a Yamabuki ogon.

      What to look for Shusui and Asagi lineage fry including Ki-shusui at 1st culling is a black/navy colored genetic marker, which is called a Chobo sumi, on its head. (the first pic for reference). Ogon/Chagoi lineage fry do not have such a mark on their head. so you can easily find the difference among the fry. Btw, Shusui's scales are colorless during fry stage.

      What to look for Hikari mono fry including Hariwake at 1st culling ( +/- 30 days old) is sheen, the pectoral fins and tip of mouth & eyelids should have sheen for Hikaimono variety.

      then, what to look for other than the above description types is depend on your purpose & taste. it could be pattern, color tone of your choice, but no matter what fry has nice pattern or color, skin quality such as transparent & lustrous as if silky skin texture is the key for good fish. (the second pic for refrence). yes, you description as "the ones are kind of translucent" is a fundamental factor.

      the red ones look like a hybrid type so we can't tell exactly at this time, it might be one of a kind since there are so many kawarimono type in Doitsu version. the fry in the third picture are Midorigoi with stepped yellow pattern version, and are keepers from 1st cull by a pro breeder who specialized kawarimono breeding. .....he has been possessed with yellow color.


      Here are some keepers of Hariwake and Shusui from 2nd cull by a pro breeder.

      Shusui : keepers from 2nd cull
      http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090803_887101.jpg
      http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090803_887100.jpg
      http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090803_887099.jpg

      Hariwake : keepers from 2nd cull
      http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090805_898575.jpg
      http://kbj.img.jugem.jp/20090805_898576.jpg
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      Last edited by Super Kindai; 09-21-2009 at 02:16 PM.

    10. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      i'm thinking i will let them all winter over in the mud pond and seine them next spring.
      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Dan, talked to my fish hatchery friend who says the fry will do very well in the mud over winter. not the kind of situation as in a liner pond.
      Are you sure?

      I don't know your winter temperature but your fry are very small compared to normal size offspring of the year because of late spawning. I am really wondering if the fry can make it all winter in the mud pond...., even if there are some survivors, good ones are weak so that best ones could be gone at first.....

    11. #51
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      thank you so much!

      Super kindai, thank you so much for taking the time to illustrate the keepers from the shusui and hariwake culls. i learned so much.

      i think my hariwake fry are very much like the ones in your picture.

      i have a question about the little black dorsal line on some of the fry:
      will that line become blue (or black) dorsal scales? or is it temporary?

      At what age or size do the dorsal scales on shusui fry take on color?

      what is the name for what i am going to call a "forehead plate" just above the eyes and does it indicate anything? i notice it is green on some of my fry. i refer to it as 'the mark of the midori.'

      also, some of my fry are a pale yellow and some are more dark gold.

      are the pale yellow, yellow ogons? or just another shade of hariwake?
      are the platinum fry, platinum ogons?

      thanks again for your guidance and your time.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    12. #52
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      Super Kindai, i'm scared again. (!) I could accommodate fry in the house. but I have promised myself i will not put myself through that high anxiety hell again. i will double-check with my fish hatchery friend. he has assured me that they will be okay. eek.

      the pond is spring fed. the water comes from the ground and then under the dock. i plan to insulate under the dock with thick blocks of styrofoam, use a tank heater and a solar blanket in front of the dock. the water is more shallow a the dock end, but the pond is 12' deep.

      i am in zone five. technically, that means the air can go to 20 below zero, but the water at twelve feet deep, it is always 39 degrees or more.

      if you are saying, "they will die, max," i have to see what to do now.
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      Last edited by Koigrl; 09-21-2009 at 04:13 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    13. #53
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      Geez Max, why don't you get a real mud pond




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    14. #54
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      thanks, rain.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    15. #55
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      Prem and I will come and pull those babies for you before winter
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    16. #56
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      come on down! er. up. east. whatever. lol.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    17. #57
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      I think they will be just fine.

      they will be at least 3" before the first freeze over (hopefully) and they have all that depth to swim in.

      just keep your aerators on all the time.

      -Eric

    18. #58
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      re: wintering the fry over in the mud. :P
      i used the 'emergency only number' (!) and called my friend in the fish hatchery business to make double-darn sure the fry (July spawn) will be okay. From his experience in a town near mine, same temps, less depth in his mud, he says the fry will do fine. hoping for a temperate winter, everyone. and that my planned heat and insulation under and around the dock will give the little ones a little extra protection.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

    19. #59
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Super kindai, thank you so much for taking the time to illustrate the keepers from the shusui and hariwake culls. i learned so much.

      i think my hariwake fry are very much like the ones in your picture.

      i have a question about the little black dorsal line on some of the fry:
      will that line become blue (or black) dorsal scales? or is it temporary?

      At what age or size do the dorsal scales on shusui fry take on color?

      what is the name for what i am going to call a "forehead plate" just above the eyes and does it indicate anything? i notice it is green on some of my fry. i refer to it as 'the mark of the midori.'

      also, some of my fry are a pale yellow and some are more dark gold.

      are the pale yellow, yellow ogons? or just another shade of hariwake?
      are the platinum fry, platinum ogons?

      thanks again for your guidance and your time.
      you are welcome, Max. Yes, your Doitsu Hariwake fry are pretty much like the ones in that previous picture....

      As far as I know, the little black dorsal line on some of the fry is temporary and that is a trail of Asagi blood/gene. For instance, the 1st picture is, believe it or not, Kujaku' fry.

      I have never bred Shusui in our back yard so I don't have personal experience but according to a breeder's articles/reports in JP monthly koi magazine that I read before, color of the dorsal scales on shusui fry will appear during winter, let's say several month old, I don't know about size but 6"- 8" is a normal size for new born tosai.

      > a "forehead plate" just above the eyes.....
      Does this mean a round or triangle shaped mark as if underlying sumi on the head? If so, that is called a Chobo sumi (chobo = small).

      Here are new pictures of another breeder's keepers from 3rd cull, --the degree of intensity & uniformity of Hikari /sheen is top priority throughout all culling process--, we can see different shade of beni in two groups, offspring of same parent.

      "tosai is tosai"....... this short phrase means that tosai is changeable but a tendency of each fry/tosai such as skin quality, color tone/shade, body flow/line, proportion of bone structure remain same way as fish grow.
      How can you learn or experience about it in person? ......you have a quite lot of best teachers in your mud pond.
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      Last edited by Super Kindai; 09-22-2009 at 02:53 PM.

    20. #60
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      Super kindai, this is a short message to say thank you for your new posting. again, such good information.


      i am working on insulating the section of my pond near the dock for winter. i have found a solar blanket that is 16 mil thick, clear, and should import and hold some warmth from the sun as well as from the tank heater. the solar blanket would be about 18' x 36'. i would put an air pillow under it lengthwise. the pillow is 4.5' x 15'. this would create a tent shape that might deflect snow and at least stop the snow from weighing down the blanket and or sinking it. i would tether the panel to the dock on two sides and to the land on the other two sides. there is a cove at the front of the pond that would make this possible. the water becomes deep quickly, but there is more shallow water in this area of the pond.

      my thanks again, and if anyone reading this thinks my idea for a heat tent is ridiculous (!)-- feel free to weigh in. i'm experimenting and appreciate input. the link to the solar blanket is below.

      http://www.intheswim.com/Pool-Covers...ets-in-ground/
      Last edited by Koigrl; 09-22-2009 at 05:06 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


      K-POTY 2013

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