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gonecadd
02-17-2006, 11:00 AM
I found this on a website. http://www.sokhon-phem.com/ Links on the left of the page.
The 6 Oldest Koi :

1-Hanako (scarlet) - 217 years old; born in 1st year of Horeki (A.D. 1751); in the preceding year there arose an internal feud in the Kaga Clan; and the birth was 25 years before the Declaration of Independence of America.


2-Aoi (white with red spots on belly) - 170 years old; born in 10th year of Kansei (A.D. 1798); in the same year Norinaga Motoori published "Kojiki-dan", Juzo Kondo discovered Island of Etoroff, and Napoleon went on his Egyptian campaign.


3-Chikara (bluish black) - 155 years old; born in 10th year of Bunka (A.D. 1813); in the same year Kumpei Gamo died, Stevenson invented the steam engine, and in the following year Bakin takizawa published "Nanso Satomi Hakken-den".


4-Satoru (white with black spots on back) - 151 years old; born in 14th year of Bunka (A.D. 1917); in the same year an English ship visited the port of Uraga. (Death of Gempaku Sugita)


5-Santa (black with an indented scar on the face) - 141 years old; born in the 10th year of Bunsei (A.D. 1827); in the same year Sanyo Rai published "Nihon Gaishi". Great Fire of Yedo in the following year.


6-Yuki (white) - 141 years old; born in the same year as "Santa".

savannahrobinson
02-17-2006, 11:15 AM
That's very good information. :)

Ryan S.
02-17-2006, 11:21 AM
Cool (If you beleive it ;)

MCPS Mike
02-17-2006, 11:23 AM
I think the myth of Hanako has already been debunked.
And I believe I also read the evidence first here on Koiphen. :thinking:

Ray Jordan
02-17-2006, 11:44 AM
I beg your pardon. Hanako the red carp is not a myth. I believe - just like Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, etc. Keep your debunking to yourself.

MCPS Mike
02-17-2006, 12:04 PM
I beg your pardon. Hanako the red carp is not a myth. I believe - just like Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, etc. Keep your debunking to yourself.
I'm not sayin that "I" don't believe. I have the story in my Koi notebook. Just saying that somebody here at one time offered evidence to the contrary.

No such evidence has been presented in the case of Mr.Clause and Mr.Bunny.
:D:

Link to the story of Hanako..
http://www.vcnet.com/koi_net/hanako.html

Cowiche Ponder
02-17-2006, 12:08 PM
Are these "old" koi still alive?

MCPS Mike
02-17-2006, 12:10 PM
Are these "old" koi still alive?

Hanako died in 1977.

JPennington
02-17-2006, 12:12 PM
Has anyone here actually had a koi die of natural causes?

MCPS Mike
02-17-2006, 12:27 PM
Has anyone here actually had a koi die of natural causes?

Excellent question.
My oldest are now 12 and still doing fine.
Hopefully Doc or JR will add some input here.

lilhelper
02-17-2006, 01:07 PM
Hmm does anyone have a picture of these?
I would love to see one, if not can you take some pictures of your 12 year old koi?
Or any pictures of old koi.

gonecadd
02-17-2006, 01:25 PM
I have no idea if any of this is true but have always heard that koi CAN live a very long time if properly taken care of.
My two largest koi are approximately 10-12 years old. We've had our pond going for 13+ years now and we got our koi within a year or two of starting the pond.
The little ones in the pic are some goldfish.

Ray Jordan
02-17-2006, 04:05 PM
Here is a photo of Hanako taken a few years before she died. She was a carp (natually occuring red color varation) not a koi (nishikigoi) I think it would be pretty rare to document a koi that is over 30 years old.

lilhelper
02-17-2006, 08:16 PM
well if she had color it was a koi.

the japanese developed color through the naturally occuring color variation.

Sugarloafkoi
02-17-2006, 09:24 PM
Isawa sakai has one that is in his Old Parent stock pond, very close to Sakuma, that I was told is well over 50. It looked it, it was a very deformed Yamabuki. I was told it was his fathers Yamabuki parent. I have no reason to believe that it was not untrue so, that is the oldest koi I know of or have seen.

Ask any breeder about Hanako and they just laugh and shake their head. :)

L5Vegan
02-18-2006, 02:11 AM
well if she had color it was a koi.

the japanese developed color through the naturally occuring color variation.
Hopefully you can get Ray up to speed on the history of Nishikigoi. ;)

Meg
02-18-2006, 02:53 AM
Has anyone here actually had a koi die of natural causes?
ain't a heron natural ?:rofl:

Fishbreeder
02-18-2006, 09:22 AM
I've still got a few very old koi. Koi I purchased in 1992 that were approaching old age back then. One male sanke I know is over 30 and a female doitsu sanke that is older than that.

I've lost a million dollars worth of koi over the years, maybe more, I'm not sure any of them died of "old age".

Mortalities amongst the breeding stock usually occur just before, during and just after the spawn. I associate these morts with the spawning process which can be very stressful for older koi.

Most very old koi I know of end up with tumors and eventually die from them. I feel that koi as a group are very susceptible to tumors and cancers due to having been largely inbred for many genrations. This susceptibility coupled with our use of various carcinogens as therapuetants as well as carcinogens in the koi's environment from the air and water helps to bring many koi to what must be an untimely demise.

And of course we mostly kill all our koi before they could reach a natural end through a mix of loving kindness and stupidity or through uncontrollable mishaps. (I make a fine distinction between "lost" and "killed" fish. "Lost" means you had no control over what killed the koi, "killed" means you either did something stupid or forgot to do something necessary.)

Although I beleive Hananko was a real koi that might have lived to be very old, I do not believe these aged koi on the first post were very well documented. Certainly none of this type of anecdotal evidence is accepted by fishery scientists as "fact".

Brett

lilhelper
02-18-2006, 12:28 PM
maybe we should start. having kids with other nations, so the bad genes get sifted out of our gene pool.

Charles Pearson
02-18-2006, 01:05 PM
I have no idea if any of this is true but have always heard that koi CAN live a very long time if properly taken care of.
My two largest koi are approximately 10-12 years old. We've had our pond going for 13+ years now and we got our koi within a year or two of starting the pond.
The little ones in the pic are some goldfish.

These are two of 5 koi I bought in 2000, for $20. each. From a guy named Dave in Denver. Domestic, I just said send five. They came overnight in a 12x12x12 inch box.
2 inch each. Unfortunately, there still all living, two big now to flush... 25 - 29 inch.
Put them in a 180 gal. pond, then I moved up to a 250 gal pond from home depot, then a 2000. I now have a 5000 but put real fish in that one!
These fish have been hit on by Herons and Racoons, ponds been drained dry, had to hose them off one time to keep the sun from burning them up.......PP'd on once a year, been through one to five Hurricanes (a year) for the past 5-6 years. Have no confirmation, poor color, long skinny shapes, their wild as all get out, I think they'll out live most of us....

schildkoi
02-18-2006, 01:15 PM
That's how I take this type of information.

As an example, how accurate can it actually be? Anyone do any math on these? Take this one as an example:

4-Satoru (white with black spots on back) - 151 years old; born in 14th year of Bunka (A.D. 1917); in the same year an English ship visited the port of Uraga. (Death of Gempaku Sugita)

Now let's see, 1917 plus 151 years = 2068. So the Koi is still alive with a prediction of living for exactly 62 more years? LOL Now I am sure a typo was made...but perhaps many other mistakes were made over the years as well?


Steve

Sugarloafkoi
02-18-2006, 01:19 PM
LOL, I didnt catch that Steve. Math was never my strong point.

Matt

Shannon66
02-18-2006, 04:20 PM
I don't think they look that bad, Charles. Ugly are the carp I see in the pond at the Zoo big enough to swallow a duck! :D:

Shannon

Wayne S.
02-18-2006, 04:58 PM
This story has been posted many times. JR replied to one such post last year

Quote - The original mistake was made when one scientist counted rings on the scale. later on, after the story spread like wildfire, the greater scientific community poured in and pretty much debunked the technique. they came up with a more modest age of 28 years. But interestingly enough, it was too good a story and too many people fell in love with the story so the facts released a year or two later were pretty much ignored. Even today the story of Hanoko is repeated in garden centers, pop mags and the net as factual.

Solid colored koi are usually closer to the wild type and have both a higher survival rate and longer life. People donít realize it but different varieties of koi can have different allele counts (points on the gene count). And many physiological differences exist between true wild carp and the very refined gosanke.
There is a truly documented carp in one of the European zoological parks (name escapes me at the moment) that is a huge. I seem the records show that the fish was brought to the aquarium 60 or 70 years ago, if I remember correctly.

In another JR post that included a pic of the fish he wrote "This count was done by a Professor Masayoshi Hiro. He was a Doctor of Science (PhD) at laboratory of Domestic science Nagoya Woman's college. This was done by examining the scale under microscope and counting each section of the scale according to a family member interview.Additional facts of interest, Hanako weighed 7.5 kilograms and was 28 inches (70 cm) in length. The picture was taken in 1967. And she died ten years (1977) later at the supposed age of 226. This is a sweet and fascinating story. And lord knows, it is the foundation for countless pop literature books and articles that tell the public that koi live for hundreds of years. But is it true? A picture of Hanako's scale taken from "LIVING JEWELS" GENERAL SURVEY OF FANCY CARP.The scale was 'harvested' in 1964 and examined in July thru Oct of 1964.The fish was pronounced to be 217 years old in 1968. (please note that the math starts to break down a little, the more the dates are examined- but close enough for 'myth work')."

savannahrobinson
02-18-2006, 05:04 PM
These are two of 5 koi I bought in 2000, for $20. each. From a guy named Dave in Denver. Domestic, I just said send five. They came overnight in a 12x12x12 inch box.
2 inch each. Unfortunately, there still all living, two big now to flush... 25 - 29 inch.
Put them in a 180 gal. pond, then I moved up to a 250 gal pond from home depot, then a 2000. I now have a 5000 but put real fish in that one!
These fish have been hit on by Herons and Racoons, ponds been drained dry, had to hose them off one time to keep the sun from burning them up.......PP'd on once a year, been through one to five Hurricanes (a year) for the past 5-6 years. Have no confirmation, poor color, long skinny shapes, their wild as all get out, I think they'll out live most of us....

Charles, those are lovely fish. Good consistent color and good shape. I don't think there is a thing wrong with them.
Not all fish have to be red-black-white, or girthy. :yes:

Fishbreeder
02-19-2006, 02:19 AM
The problem with trying to count rings on a koi scale becomes very apparent when viewing a two or three year old koi's scale under a microscope. There are many, many rings, more'n a hunnert you'd say if you saw 'em. Three year old koi with hundreds of scale rings.

You can't age a fish by counting the rings on the scales. You can use scales off a particular fish to help verify the age of a particular cohort (group of fish the same size) in a population. This is a difficult and tricky procedure at best and dang near impossible at worst. Subtle clues exist in the rings that help to delineate periods of growth and periods of rest. These with other associated data taken from a population helps figure the ages of each cohort.

In addition, fish lose and regenerate scales. When aging a fish scale, that is exactly what you are doing, aging the scale, not the fish. Usually several scales are aged from each fish sampled in a time consuming and tedious process.

Who knows the state of the art of reading fish scales back in 1968. Also, I don't think I saw "Professor of Fisheries Science" as the title of the fella doing the scale readings. I know plenty of real smart scientists that don't know a arn thing about fish, let alone koi.

The use of scales in the case of Hanako to try and determine her age is almost useless when taken out of the context of working with a population and a cohort within that population.

I have heard of, and seen pictures somewhere of the fish and the record book, a large carp at an English fishing resort that had been well documented to have been caught and released by members for 99 years. That one I can swallow pretty good.

Brett