Rocks and ponds, 1999

[schildkoi]

The following is an article written by Joe Cuny, a recognized water quality expert with many years of experince with water districts and Koi ponds. Joe is a common contributor to Koi USA for a number of years.

From the April/May issue of Koi USA, 1999:

by Joseph Cuny -
Photo by Tom Graham

It has been brought to my attention that some pond builders (both Koi
and water garden) apparently are not familiar with basic pond design. In partic-
ular, I am referring to the use of gravel
and rock inside the pond. As anyone who has been a pond keeper for a few years knows, that is a real no no. Possibly this practice is a direct carryover from the aquarium 'under gravel' filters, but it is a.- wrong application of the concept.
The problem is that the gravel and rock form a dead zone, more appropriate- ly called a stagnation zone. Whether the pond has fish in it or only plants, there
are all kinds of organic material produced in the pond. This organic material gets trapped in the stagnation zone and guess what happens? It stagnates! Since the water does not circulate very well in this zone, the water is deficient in dissolved oxygen, and the organics are processed anaerobically. In other words, the organic material rots or putrefies.
The end result of such putrefaction is the production of noxious gases and disease organisms. I do not know what effect these would have on plants but they are deadly on fish and are very unaesthet- ic. In time such a pond would smell like a cesspool! This is exactly what happens in an aquarium if the under gravel filter is not cleaned regularly. Even with oxygenated water flowing through such a filter, there are dead spots where the
water does not flow and these have to be cleaned, usually with some type of vacuum or siphon system.
If it is necessary to put rocks on the bottom of a pond, possibly to simulate a natural stream, they should be well sepa- rated and bedded in mortar to allow flow around them and to eliminate pockets where debris could accumulate. The amount of work necessary to properly imbed gravel probably eliminates the use of gravel. If it is thought that the gravel will function as a filter, it should be
placed such that it can be fairly easily cleaned. Despite claims made by various people, all filters must be cleaned. The only possible exception is the trickling

filter type that is self cleaning, but in the process dumps the waste into the follow- ing stage where it must be captured and disposed of.
I have seen gravel filters built into a sump in the bottom of a pond. Such a
filter is almost impossible to clean, and the resulting pond does not provide a healthy environment for the fish. With such a filter in a water garden, I would expect the same type of problems. I realize that many people believe that the root system of the plants provides space for the organisms that degrade the organic material, but this is not a suitable filter except for those organics that are soluble. Even these, when aerobically digested, result in material that falls to the bottom where it joins the leaves, stems, decaying roots, and so forth and then putrefies.

More to follow!

[schildkoi]

ADI Rebuttal and Mr. Cuny's response from September/October 1999 Koi USA:

Rocks and Gravel; Flaw or Fallacy

lam writing this in response to the article written by Mr. Joseph Cuny entitled
:' A Major Construction Flaw," KG! USA March/April 1999 Issue 23 Volume 5.
I would like to challenge his "construction flaw" theory on basic pond construction techniques by stating the major flaw is that the "no rocks" theory is pure and simply fal- lacy. As a pond builder, I have built many hundreds of ponds and every single one of them contains several tons of rock and grav- el as an integral part of its construction and the ecosystem. Needless to say, I was shocked to read this article. Here are a few pointers for those of you that are afraid to use rock and gravel in a pond.
First of all, the idea of a pond or water garden is to re-create a piece of nature in your backyard. Otherwise perhaps a pool or hot tub would be a better choice. If the latter is not the case, it is critical in the reproduc- tion of an aquatic ecosystem to simulate its form and function. In other words, how



many natural lakes, ponds, and streams have you seen that were lined with rubber, PVC, concrete or other man-made materials depending on your area. Are there "Stagnation Zones" in these ponds? Of course there are. Certain forms of het- erotrophic bacteria have evolved to live and prosper in this zone. The only way to
remove nitrates from a pond is by het- erotrophic bacteria in anaerobic conditions converting the nitrates into nitrogen gas, which will return to the atmosphere. Nitrite is also removed in the same fashion, but is converted to nitrous oxide. In natural sys- tems plant uptake of nitrogenous wastes is a critical role in overall nutrient management.
Water changes are also effective at removing nutrients, but are not feasible on a regular basis because it increases mainte- nance and can become costly. The only time I recommend a major water change is in early spring to refresh the system. You may argue this is not natural, but we are worki~g with a closed system, which requires some human intervention, with pumps, filters and yearly cleaning. It can also be argued that a thorough cleaning simulates the flushing
action of rivers and streams -- during rainy periods.
Creating a natural living ecosystem with both aerobic and anaerobic conditions is clearly the ideal situation. The rock and gravel will lit- erally be alive with activity, creating a habitat where crustaceans will feed on detritus, breaking it down into smaller pieces. Bacteria and enzymes will efficiently reduce the pieces into harm- less micronutrients, inorgan- ic salts, carbon dioxide, and water.
In my experience with yearly pond maintenance, I've noticed extreme differ- ences in the amount of sludge found on pond bot- toms. Bare bottom ponds of rubber or concrete will get
3H to 6H of sludge every year from fish waste and decay- ing organic debris. Rock and gravel bottomed ponds will have about 1/4H to 1/2H per year of mud. How do I know this? I've cleaned other peoples' ponds, removed the




KOI USA

I sludge, and suggested a gravel base to the
homeowner. A year later I would return to clean the pond and I wouldn't even see the sludge between the gravel base. The only variable that has changed is the addition of river gravel. I would have to assume that it was indeed the substrate with its benthic dwellers that changed the outcome.
I would like to add that a properly designed system would include rock, gravel, a biological filter, a mechanical skimmer fil- ter, bacteria, and aquatic plants. The skim- mer works to keep your pond free of debris by drawing a sheet of water into a catch bag on the pond's edge. The debris can be easily removed from the bag, which will dramati- cally reduce the amount of leaves, twigs, grass clippings and so forth from collecting on the bottom of the pond.
Don't forget about the many other benefits of stone in a pond
. Habitat for young fish, crustaceans, insect larvae
. Protection of liner from harmful UV rays . Ballast for liner in high groundwater
situations
. Stabilization of pond structure (prevents collapse of soil)
. 1,000 times more aesthetically pleasing then a wrinkled old rubber liner.
The key to success in ponds is a proper design including rock and gravel. In my opinion it is a "Major Construction Flaw" not to have rock and gravel as a substrate in a pond. It's simple, it's natural, and it works!
Ed Beaulieu

About the Author: Ed Beaulieu is the Head Construction Supervisor and Lead Foreman for Aquascapfi Designs, Inc. and has designed and installed hundreds of ponds. Ed's degree in Zoology, combined with years of hands-on building experience gives him an extensive knowledge base in water gardens and ecosystem development.

Responseto Mr. Ed Beaulieu

lam glad to see Mr. Ed Beaulieu's response to my article "A Major Construction Flaw," because it indicates
that someone actually read it! Rather than dissecting his response I will address only
Cont. on page 110


Continued page8-Letter to the Editor

three items.. First, it is readily apparent that he and.I are talking about two totally different things. Since this is a Koi magazine, my material was aimed at Koi ponds, which can be attractive and even simulate it '.natural' pond. Ed, however, wants",...to re-create a piece of nature..." which is laudable but not reasonably feasible in a typical backyard Koi pond.
This even shows up in his response when you read between the lines. In his
third paragraph [~3] "Creating.. .ideal situation." A natural living ecosystem is NEVER stocked as heavily as a typical Koi pond. Despite the aesthetics, such a pond is totally artificial. It does not require [~3] ".. .some human intervention.. ."but total human involvement. If we are talking about water gardens with a few fish, Ed may re-create nature but not in a true Koi pond.
Next we look a(his statements [~2] about nitrate removal. Using typical rules of thumb (Very little in this hobby is precise!) on a hypothetical Koi pond, we find the following. A pond 2' deep x 4' wide x 22' . long yields about 2,000 gallons. For the filter at 2 gal per mill per sq. ft, the filter surface area is about 17 sq ft. With a minimum

KGI USA SEpTEMbER/OCTObER 1999

media. With at least 50 sq ft of surface per cu ft of media, we have 1700 sq ft area for the aerobic organisms in the filter.
Generally, to denitrify (nitrate to nitrogen gas) anaerobic organisms require at least 10 times the area of the aerobic ones (ammonia to nitrate). This means that the pond should have about 17,000 sq ft of surface for the organisms. The hypothetical pond has about 176 sq ft of wetted surface': side walls and bottom. Assuming 1” of rock embedded over this same 50 sq ft per cu ft, this becomes about 500 sq ft available for the anaroebic organisms. There is not enough surface area in the rock-enhanced pond to denitrify unless the stocking level is about 3% of a typical Koi Pond.

" Third [still ~2], the claim ismade that plants are critical to denitrification The following numbers are very rough clearly indicate the problem. A feed rate is 100 lb per yr, We have .27lbs per day. During the summer, it double this (depending on where you live), so let's call it .5lb per day. At 33% protein of which possibly 33% is used by the Koi
and filter, we have about .l lb per day of protein. Protein is the total souce of the ammonia/nitrates. For our purpose assume the equivalent protein in plants is only 2% of the total plant Struture. This means that there would be about 5lbs of plant growth per day to be disposed of. That's dry weight, not the weight of wet algae. In a true Koi pond, unlike a water garden, nitrate removal is accomplished by water changes not by plants or organisms in the pond.

. NOTE: If anyone out there has scientific research data on the conversion from Koi food to plant structure, I am sure

that all of us Koi keepers would like to have that information. I personally am somewhat weak in this area but I have

run some related experiments and reviewed the work done in San Diego on water hyacinths for Nitrogen removal. In

all cases, the required area and disposal of excess plants were far worse than anyone anticipated.

Joseph F. Cuny Koi USA
Water Quality Editor


Even back in 1999 and ever since there has been an effort to help educate people on problems associated with attempting to keep Koi in a gravel bottomed pond. Even as of today, Nancy at ADI can't answer the question of what she thinks is "lightly stocked".....well as Joe Cuny points out, its about only 3% of what a typical, well filtered Koi pond can support.

Natural environment? Nature provides 10s of thousands if not 100s of thousands gallons per fish.

Steve

[keith berland]

Steve,

Thanks for posting that I have read it before.
Mr. Cuny seems to be under the impression that only the rocks are providing filtration in said pond.
No where does he speak of the limits of the mechanical or bio-logical filtration of the system further he fails to mention the different sizes of filter available.The system provides both mech and bio-filtration it does have limits,
It is not equal to many "koi" systems but it can does and well continue to house koi ,the real problem I see you having with that is it looks so damn nice doing it.
Mr Beaulieu has built more ponds in both # and $ then you and all your koi buddies will ever do we are talking about a 50 million dollar a year company here.
He speaks from real life field experience not book theory I tend do listen to those that have really done something not self appointed experts that make drawings and leave the real work to others.
So when are we installing your pond I will give you all materials at cost and work with you side by side to build it.Then you will know what happens in the real world.

[Blammo]

Steve,

Thanks for posting that I have read it before.
Mr. Cuny seems to be under the impression that only the rocks are providing filtration in said pond.
No where does he speak of the limits of the mechanical or bio-logical filtration of the system further he fails to mention the different sizes of filter available.The system provides both mech and bio-filtration it does have limits,
It is not equal to many "koi" systems but it can does and well continue to house koi ,the real problem I see you having with that is it looks so damn nice doing it.
Mr Beaulieu has built more ponds in both # and $ then you and all your koi buddies will ever do we are talking about a 50 million dollar a year company here.
He speaks from real life field experience not book theory I tend do listen to those that have really done something not self appointed experts that make drawings and leave the real work to others.
So when are we installing your pond I will give you all materials at cost and work with you side by side to build it.Then you will know what happens in the real world. LOL.. Berland.. C'mon down, son.
Bring the BOOB(s) with you...
I'll learn ya both !!!!!!!:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Ever seen 500 thousand fish at one location ?
Five fish blundererzzz.. Bow out.. NOW !
Taco Bell is WAYYY over those numberzzz. They STILL SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!

[schildkoi]

It doesn't matter how many ponds a person builds if they aren't built correctly for their end use. Enron had the energy market cornered too. Corrfect me if I am wrong here but they didn't have more than one size "bio fall" back in 99. That falls provides VERY limited biofiltration with substandard media and substabdard design to boot. The "newer" options are based on the sizing of the ponds (based on their own brochures) and in relation to the larger ponds still provide the same level of substandard bio filtration through a poor design and substandard media.

Oh, and again Keith, you think I haven't actually built ponds before? LOL...again with your false assumptions and true lack of knowledge and understanding. I think I'll "pass" on your pond at cost offer. Not that I would mind the work, but based on your comments alone, I'll invest my pond funds more wisely.

I've worked with numerous contractors like you in the past who "think" they know what they are doing and in actuality don't really have a clue. Most eventually come around after they realize that maybe someone else knows a few things more than they do. Those include some AS installers as well.

Steve

[Blammo]

It doesn't matter how many ponds a person builds if they aren't built correctly for their end use. Enron had the energy market cornered too. Corrfect me if I am wrong here but they didn't have more than one size "bio fall" back in 99. That falls provides VERY limited biofiltration with substandard media and substabdard design to boot. The "newer" options are based on the sizing of the ponds (based on their own brochures) and in relation to the larger ponds still provide the same level of substandard bio filtration through a poor design and substandard media.

Oh, and again Keith, you think I haven't actually built ponds before? LOL...again with your false assumptions and true lack of knowledge and understanding. I think I'll "pass" on your pond at cost offer. Not that I would mind the work, but based on your comments alone, I'll invest my pond funds more wisely.

I've worked with numerous contractors like you in the past who "think" they know what they are doing and in actuality don't really have a clue. Most eventually come around after they realize that maybe someone else knows a few things more than they do. Those include some AS installers as well.

Steve THANKS, Steve... WELL SAID !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Rock Man]

Even I can't argue with that one! ;)

The Rock Man :cool:

[keith berland]

Steve
, Exactly how much is this very little filtration I want numbers not bs give me the numbers.
Tell me what in the design is bad exactly not some vague it's bad but real life. Bad as you say or not the filtration is there and must be made part of the equation no where is it talked of so keep talking all you want about all the ponds you have built you refuse an offer to give you hands on experence to learn.
You are a closed minded person living in the past when the large vet opened his mind to research and understand something he hand no first hand knowledge of you and others attacked him too.
I see no responce to my saying its the pure good looks that you cannot stand so that must be true .
My pond looks better than yours and my fish are healthy and happy thats the way it is deal with it.
Pretty sure that lifting a shovel would kill you eh.
Oh and you never worked with anyone like me that you can be sure of.

[schildkoi]

Want your cake and eat it too? First you don't care about the filtration equation....you said "You don't know and don't care". Now that you can't even begin to answer the questions and make very pointed critisims you want numbers? The point I was trying to make was ADI doesn't know so how can they even begin to recommend a stocking density? Now you are grasping at straws. I'll give you a hint here.....Lava rock actually has a very low surface area as compared to its "flow through" capabilities. In addition the pores clog with sludge (just cut some open after a month or so), the biofalls don't have bottom drains to flush the sludge out with, they are un aerated so sludge just accumulates. The answer to your question is in Joe's article...just whip out your calculator and do the math for the limited added surface area from the biofalls.....can you do that?

As for looking good? Yep, the landscaping is very nice. They aren't bad watergardens either except for the maintenance....but still poor environments for fish, let alone Koi. But to say I can't stand the good looks? Oh please Keith, get real.

Have you ever done a cfu count for the anerobic bacteria in one? You probably haven't. Want to compare one of yours verses one of mine that I've designed and helped to build? Do you understand the significance of this test?

If you'd just stop and listen, you may learn a thing or two....maybe even 3!

Again with the work comments? LOL you really don't have a clue!
Oh, and I am pretty sure I don't want to work with anyone like you too...at least until you let your shovel knock some sense into you.

You see Keith, you said it yourself...you're a watergardener...hey that's fine....but don't try and pretend you even know the first thing about Koi or Koi ponds because you obviously don't. The first thing you'd realize is that a Koi pond is meant to provide a healthy environment for the Koi and an excellent oportunity to view its inhabitants. They look just fine and dandy for that purpose unlike your watergardens which don't provide for those purposes....but then again they aren't supposed to so you wouldn't understand that difference since you are obviously unwilling to learn those differences.

Steve

[lindan]

You know, Keith, if rocks on the bottom of a pond were the only thing that makes a pond look good, you might have a point. The difference between you and many true "koi kichi" on this board and elsewhere, is that to these people it is the koi which makes a pond look good. You can add beautiful landscaping and use imaginative materials in the construction of a true koi pond and achieve the primary goal... to have humongous, beautiful koi in an environment that is the best if can be FOR THE KOI.

I must add that I do not fall into the "koi kichi" category, we just have an 8000 gallon concrete pond with koi, goldfish and plants in it... I know we are making compromises that many people are not willing to make. All of these "rocks or no rocks" debates are quite simply comparing apples and oranges, and there are some who will never even agree to disagree.

Linda

[keith berland]

Steve,
You know if they could do it you would be banned too.
I like chocolate cake thanks .

You are the one refusing knowledge I offer it to you and openly seek it from here and other places. I can build a "koi" pond and you could never make a koi live in a watergarden the stuff you do is not all that hard I understand it well you are scared that when the large vet does cfu counts it will not show what you think. anyway right next to your hotel for the MPKS show is one of my ponds sorry that one has only goldfish but take some water if you want and tell me what it shows I do not own a test kit so all I go by is the way the fish act.
I like to live and let live you like to live and belittle you are a small man and hardly worth the time I spend so this is all I have to say to you . NO MAS.
One last thought MY POND LOOKS BETTER AND MY FISH ARE HEALTHY DEAL WITH IT.

[nicco]

Have you ever done a cfu count for the anerobic bacteria in one? ............... Want to compare one of yours verses one of mine that I've designed and helped to build?
Steve

Yes please gents. Can this be arranged? I'd like to see the numbers for a bakki shower only pond too. Too much to ask?

Perhaps we can play the guess the count for this pond!

[Harveythekoi]

Lets look at another example of why your ponds are not meant for fish. Predators! At the shallow depths the egrets & herons can wade right in and feast away. Of course your sure to make some more money off the customers by selling them some styrofoam herons or alligators. And what's with the convenient feeding shelves you install for the raccoons & other critters.

And your ponds only look good, your idea not mine, when first installed. I'll take some pics of a freinds pond that has so much sludge on the bottom it sickening. Seems that skimmer doesn't help much with that. When he complained to his installer they recommended a sand filter. What a joke!

Your ponds are only good for the installers to make extra money on service contracts and fixes for the obvious flaws that are built in. Greed is what motivates AS and their installers, if it weren't so you couldn't possibly sell these as fish pond and sleep at night.

Garrett

[JPR]

You know I feel kinda stupid even defending Joe Cuny or Steve C's point of view! As if what they say NEEDS defending?! Its all fact!
I would say this in response to Keith's assertion that a guy has credibility just because he builds a lot of ponds. They call those who keep repeating the same mistake over and over again expecting a different result- nutZ!
Here's the simplest of dynamics that just about any observant koi keeper knows-
Build a pond and add a lot of fish. You are likely to get green water in the first year. The UV light is installed and it kills the free floating algae. This algae cell wall is made 'tacky' by it's exposure to UV light and tends to stick to another algae cell and they sink out of circulation to pond bottom. In a well designed koi pond this material is picked up by the bottom drain and delivered to the prime vortex for removal.
In a no bottom/rock littered pond bottom, this same dynamics results in a percentage of this decaying algae to combine with fish waste in the rock crevices. This is now a dead zone of anaerobic activity. Multiply this activity by one thousand. You have created a HIGHLY active gram negative bacteria population. In many cases, it is a ticking time bomb. In other cases, based on fish numbers and water change practices, it is finessed - until a problem final causes the whole thing to become algae covered or deadly to the fish.
This is why in 1980s-1990s you saw the removal of gravel beds and in-pond gravel filters. Aeromonas was at epidemic proportions back then- the KHV of its day. Now it is a minor annoyance for established koi keepers.
So keep you lilies and hard goldfish varieties in these ponds and leave the koi for more ‘koi friendly’ environments.

JR

PS -Steve I see you were wise enough not to fall into Keith's thinking- 'filtration' in a living system, usually refers to ammonia mamagement. ANY filter can do that. The removal of dead organic material however, is the first and in some ways, critical, first filtration. Trapping a portion or all of that organic within the pond is a bad idea. And ponds- ESPECIALLY koi ponds with that massive biomass can NEVER be run as 'natural systems'.
Here's a classic test for any one interviewing an Installer for a future pond- ASK THIS- what do you do to prefilter the pond water before the biological filter. If the Installer says " we trap the leaves with a strainer or a nylon bag in a skimmer basket and you vacuum the floor weekly"- run away! LOL JR

[stephen]

"Have you ever done a cfu count for the anerobic bacteria in one?"SC

How is this accomplished?

Stephen

[Tom]

OK - I haven't read all the thread but I know Steve's view on this stuff and its cropped up time and again on different boards. The thing that really amazes me is that some people still advocate this.

The facts I really like are ones based on your own personal experience. Here's mine.

Liner pond built in 1987. Knew nothing about anything but it was ok I had the little hard back book. Built the pond for the kids. The kids weren't interested. Eventually realised I needed a filter and a pump. Bought a little black box. Put all sorts in the pond, Rudd, Koi, Tench - even some Trout at one stage. (They're great cos when you switch the waterfall pump off they die and you eat them)

I wanted a little piece of nature in my back garden. The gravel on the bottom of the pond looked lovely and the fish loved rooting around in it so it must be good. Got lots of river Lillys and Iris and threw them in. Eventually realised tghat the plants weren't keeping too well so out the came. Fish still liked the gravel though. Everything worked fine for years and years... well I say fine, I just had the normal 2 or 3 deaths every year but they wereeasily replaced. Spring and summer was the usual process of pouring in all sorts of anti-bacteria and anti parasite medicne, finding ways of treating ulcerous sores etc... I was really learning about medicine so things were obviously working and some fish survived every year to prove it.

One year they all died. Every one of them. Even the 18kilo purachina that I'd had for years. I'd been told by some people over the years... 'get rid of that f*cking gravel !'.

Well it was either fill it in or start again. I wanted to give it one last go. Emptied and improved the pond and filtration etc.. However, when emptying the pond (water was always crystal clear)... the stench was awful. When I got in amongst the gravel and disturbed it the neighbours complained. It smelled like 12 years of accumulated sewage, which is exactly what it was. The fact that anything survived at all amazed me. I think dead people probably smell better. Putrid stench doesn't even come close to describing it.

As for the idiot that's trying to recreate a little piece of nature in a back garden !!!. We have loads of gravel lakes near where I live, all old quarry pits. All gravel bottomed and they work lovely. Probably cos of the 100 million or so gallons of water and the rich and diverse bio culture that populates the 50 acrce bottom, the fact that its a high water table and teh water is filtered and enters up through the billion tons of grave from the aquafiers below and is constantly being replensihed by nature.

When my back garden measures a few square miles then I'll try and recretae nature in it. Meanwhile, I'll stick to a koi pond with nothing but water and koi in it.

[Meagain #1b]

I have a conundrum... Perhaps someone can advise me. When I built this pond last summer, I created a beach area with a few large rocks and filled with 2-3" flat black river pebbles. I knew it would be an 'issue' so I zapped the area constantly with a hose hopeing to keep it cleanish. 3 Months after installing & at least weekly zapping - I had to move a 8" diameter area for a pot. I was appalled at the sick that churned up. Right there & then, without getting a bucket for the rocks, etc. I did the grab & fling.

There is still a beach area but it's now about 1.5' x 2' or 2x2. I want to just have a few large rocks there but I'm afraid to touch it. Because the way the pond is shaped, to drain it to that level to shop vac it will be pretty tricky right now as I'm not wanting to do a massive waterchange. I may lower the water & do this bit by bit.

I can't imagine only a once per year cleaning. I know if I didn't touch it, I wouldn't set free the nasty. But I know it's there. I know there's crap under & between those rocks. Because I can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there & not causing trouble. No one can tell me there's not boatloads of bad bacteria in there. And yes - the rocks are about 2 layers thick. Maybe 1.5-2 inches.

What time of year would be best to remove this cesspool area to do the least amount of damage to my fish? Get it over with? Or wait till Fall? Will probably zap the pond with some PP for added insurance.

[Harveythekoi]

I wouldn't wait. The bio filter is at it's peak this time of year and the fish are healthiest. If it's that bad you may have to tank the fish but it sounds like you've kept up with it so it shouldn't be too bad.

Garrett

[schildkoi]

ADI as an example recommends a spring cleaning. Although I won't say that they are wrong by anymeans in this regard, There are some special considerations to remember. The Koi are at their low point in the spring as it relates to their metabolism and immune response so special emphasis should be given in the process for accomplishing this cleaning. First, a suitable environement must be set up to place the fish into during the process. While netting, special consideration should be given as to NOT disturbing the rock environment as well. These same items need special consideration regardless of the season as well.

My personal belief is that rock bottom ponds with fish, especially Koi will need more than just annual cleaning. Depending on the local climate, fish load and feeding regime, this process may be needed on as frequent as a monthly basis.

One of the many differences between a well design Koi pond (or even a water garden) is that you actually don't want to do these types of cleanings since it upsets the biological balance of the system and its not needed due to the lack of acculmulated crap within the pond..

Steve

[BickalDIYPond]

You could put your trust in those heterotrophic bacteria in a layer of rock at the bottom of your pond , and hope that they are not slackers and are eating up all that muck, OR, you could just add a bottom drain and drain that gunk into a bucket and let your plants enjoy it. I'll take the bottom drain thank you.

[nicco]

"Have you ever done a cfu count for the anerobic bacteria in one?"SC

How is this accomplished?

Stephen
Can someone please answer this? Perhaps Steve since he brought up the challenge? (the other steve not the quoted one!)

[jww]

schildkoi, I'm with you on the don't clean in spring idea over here spring is the only time I have lost fish and that is not through cleaning , I think they are at their most vulnerable at this time of year, don't really know why ,had healthy fish through the winter only for them to die in the spring.

[schildkoi]

Sorry it took me so long to answer...at work and I do have some priorities other than Koi! :)

Yo0u can take a clean, sterile baby food jar or even Mason Jar, and open it under water allowing for the air to escape and fill with water. Close the jar while underwater and take this sample to a testing lab where they can culture the specimen for Aeromonous as an example. They will give you a report on the levels (CFU= Colony Forming Units) of the specific bacteria that they are testing for. The last time I had a sample tested I belive it was $55 for the test. Most labs with culturing abilities can perform this test, just check around in your area to find a lab.

A CFU count for aeromonus of 100 or below is actually pretty good and indicates a pretty clean environment. The last time I had my pond in Dallas checked, the reading was "undetectable". Not saying that it weasn't there and there where further tests that could have been performed but then those tests get kinda expensive. :)

Steve

[koiingaround]

You know, Keith, if rocks on the bottom of a pond were the only thing that makes a pond look good, you might have a point. The difference between you and many true "koi kichi" on this board and elsewhere, is that to these people it is the koi which makes a pond look good. You can add beautiful landscaping and use imaginative materials in the construction of a true koi pond and achieve the primary goal... to have humongous, beautiful koi in an environment that is the best if can be FOR THE KOI.

I must add that I do not fall into the "koi kichi" category, we just have an 8000 gallon concrete pond with koi, goldfish and plants in it... I know we are making compromises that many people are not willing to make. All of these "rocks or no rocks" debates are quite simply comparing apples and oranges, and there are some who will never even agree to disagree.

Linda

http://img64.photobucket.com/albums/v194/crichardson/Smilies/CommunicationSmiles/23_28_100.gif Well Said Linda!!!

The most awesome koi ponds I have ever seen were built to showcase the koi!!! And when you look at those koi you don't really see anything else but these awesome creatures!!!

[nicco]

For those interested there are a couple of DIY bacteria counting test kits. This place sells a couple....

http://www.diywatertesting.com/bacteria_growth_check_test_strip.htm

http://www.diywatertesting.com/watersafe_bacteria.htm

[KOI_IN_DA_Nile]

Schildkoi, We also have builders out here in Colorado,who tell (newbie's) you need rocks in your pond to hide the liner. makes it LOOK better! they also say at the same time you just need a Verifalls and no bottom drain and that the Koi only will grow only to the size of the pond their in.,Yeah Right.
Anyone who's had a pond for awhile knows you need bottom drains a skimmer and no rocks in bottom of pond.
The one Important thing these "Boobs" forget to say is that Koi "Spawn".
We have seen plenty of ponds built by these type of Builders "who say I have 20 years Experience".
It's not a pretty sight to see in anyones pond when you have a torn up Koi floating dead in a pond. Explain that to your 3 yr old crying her heart out Why????

I have one Reccommendation for builders like these. If you want to build a Cocktail bowl size pond with Waterfall,build it for yourself!! And leave the koi to people who care about the hobby.

And to those of you planning on building a pond ( Research ,Research!! ) Otherwise you will not only be digging a hole in your yard but your wallet.
Michael

[KOI_IN_DA_Nile]

I just wanted to say Thank you, 3 summers ago we got started with Ponding I ran across your site and learned about bottom drains. we have come along way since then,like they say time flies and we have learned alot.

Thanks to you we have learned alot and passed on what we have learned to others in our area. I always laugh when I hear "oh no you can't cut my liner it will leak! lol .then I say yes we can ask "Greg Bickal" now friends say "How I ever did it without a bottom drain I'll never know.
P.s. I learned this before you had the disk out :rolleyes: many thanks !!!

Michael