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Gallagher
04-25-2005, 05:47 AM
I was looking at my fish on Sat and I notice some redness along the lateral line ‘Mirror’ scales on a Doitsu I have.
I pulled him out and injected him with 1cc 5% Baytril (this is a 20” fish) cleaned the wound
While this fish was out of the water scraped and scoped and on the 5th slide I found a skin fluke.
Auntiesue has offered some Prazi so I plan on treating today.
Any thoughts on the dose levels?
Thanks,
Jim

gonecadd
04-25-2005, 10:26 AM
I just copied and pasted this on another thread. The info comes from www.koi-unleashed.co.uk


ALL THINGS KOI AND H2O




ANTIBIOTIC DOSE RATES

All the dosages, measurements and recommendations given on this board come with no guarantees. Since the use or interpretation of any information garnered from, or suggested on this site is beyond
our control, and all relevant data concerning symptoms, water parameters, pond volumes etc are not gathered by us, and as such are not verifiable by us. Neither I, Koi-unleashed, or anyone else
connected with the board can accept anyliability or responsibility for the condition of your pond, filters and or fish, should you carry out any treatments mentioned on the this site or discussed in the forum.
The treatment of fish, while hopefully successful, can have unexpected side effects and a fish
weakened by illness, stress or parasites can die even though the treatment was within reasonable parameters. Repeat dosing, dosing with more than one treatment, concurrently or consecutively, and
/or an erroneous pond volume calculation can impact negatively on both fish and filter.

If you are not certain of the potential results of your treatments, you should seek professional advice.

A few base rules first , an understanding of the concentrations Of injectable Antibiotics is needed.
There is always a % percent sign on the bottle Of an injectable antibiotic, this pertains to the percentage of
active ingredient To every 1ml injected, I.E. baytril 2.5% will have 25 milligrams of active Ingredient for every
1ml administered.
All injectable antibiotics will have a limited shelf life, which is quoted On the bottle a kind of " best by date",
but remember once the seal On the bottle is breached this time span will be drastically reduced to a Round
a month in most cases,maybe a bit longer, again this time period is usually quoted on the Bottle
" once the seal is breached use within??"

There are no real safe antibiotics all antibiotics can kill if not used in an appropriate Manner, Baytril is
considered one of the most forgiving and safest injectables? Baytril has a ph of around 10.5 a large injection in one spotwill cause a Reaction that can lead to further complications.
Mixing antibiotics is not desirable, as many antibiotics do not Mix well, this is a general rule of thumb,
however on the odd occasion you May want to reconsider this option, if the patient is not responding,
The Odd few that will mix. Baytril and gentamycin work quite well together, and So does amikacyn and aztreonam("azactam"). but I a general sense This practice should be discouraged, for the reasons clinical complication Can arise
Some injectable antibiotics are very toxic, Antibiotics which fall into the Classification of Aminoglycocides,
e.g. Gentamycin, amakacyn, tobramycin, etc, If dosed incorrectly can and will cause kidney failure or/ and
dropsy this Is a very real and definite possibility? All Aminoglycocides are capable of This reaction

Dose Rates

before we begin, as already stated most antibiotics come with A concentration on the bottle expressed as a percentage, and many dose rates given for koi are given in milligrams per 1 ml of injectable solution. and
some in ml's per kilo
The following is a table of percentages of any given active ingredient to 1 ml of injectable solution when the
dose is expressed as a percentage in milligrams




PERCENTAGE %

I.E. BAYTRIL 2.5%
= MILLIGRAMS ( MG)OF ACTIVE INGREDIENT TO ONE MILL OF INJECTION
0.1 % = 1 MG
0.2% = 2MG
0.3% = 3MG
0.4% = 4MG
0.5% = 5MG
0.6% = 6MG
0.7% = 7MG
0.8% = 8MG
0.9% = 9 MG
1.0% = 10MG
5.0% = 50MG
10% = 100MG



Baytril ( Enrofloxacin)

Available in 2.5% solution dose rate 14 mg per kg of fish weight

Below a rough guide in inches either IM or IP route of injection every other day for a maximum of five injections

Fish length in inches ml's of injection Baytril 2.5%
6" 0.1 ml
10" 0.3 ml
14" 0.6 ml
18" 0.9 ml
22" 1.0 ml
26" 1.25 ml
30" 1.75 ml
34" 2.0 ml



Gentamycin
Available in many concentrations , dose at 5/6 mg per kg of fish weight
A common concentration is Pangram 5% however this is way to strong for accurate usage in koi, equalling
50 mg per mil administered. if this is all you can obtain, I recommend diluting it to 0.5% with injectable water
or saline. to achieve this buy 100 ml bottle of injectable sterile water to this add10 ml of the 5% pangram/ gentamycin, this will give you a total of 500 mg of active gentamycin in the 100 mil bottle which equalls 5 mg
per mil of injection solution, dose accordingly. *IM route only* very other day for an absolute maximum of three injections

*Because of the toxicity of Gentamycin i do not intend to put a rough guide up in inches*

Amakacin
available in 5 and 10% solution, dose at 20 mg per kg of fish body weight

OR

General Guide Line IM or IP route of injection every other day for a maximum of three injections

inches of fish volume of amakacin 5%
6 0.1 ml
12 0.5ml
18 0.7ml
22 1.0ml
26 1.5 ml
30 2.0 ml

Chloramphenicol

I am reliable informed that this antibiotic is out of favour in vetinary circles because of its human health implications, it can cause a disease in humans called grays syndrome which gives a blood dissorder which
has both no cure and is terminal, i am lead to believe the use of this drug is being discouraged and the use of Nuflor a sister drug is being encouraged now, for this reason i will not be including chloramphenicol ,however
this drug is used as an eye ointment in human eye care, and can be obtained as a 0.5% ointment and i have
had success treating ulcers topically with this product. enough said.

Nuflor

Available as 30% equalling 300 mg per ml as opposed to chloramphenicol 10% equalling 100 mg per ml

Nuflor Dosage at 300 mg per kg of fish

as mentioned, nuflor is a sister drug to the above but is oil based and is very hard to draw up into a syringe, therefore a wide gauge hypodermic is needed, also drug delivery takes a long time, making Nuflor not an easy drug to deliver to the patient

Although Nuflor is a much stronger solution than chloramphenicol it can be used at the same dose rate,
because of its slow release rate, bought about from being oil based, it also has a further advantage, if the fish is stressed and not to much messing around with the koi is desirable,
one dose at the same dose as chloramphenicol but at the higher concentration, is usually all that is required, as this will release slowly over quite a few days
( thats if it is to work at all with a given pathogen) if no improvment is noticed with this one dose i would recommend changing antibiotic.

General guide to dose, IM or IP route of injection for one injection repeat after 5 days if needed

If by some chance you can get chloramphenicol dose as below, do not increase the volume of the injection
because it is of less strength than Nuflor

inches of fish dose in ml's of Nuflor or chloramphenicol
6" 0.3 ml
12" 0.9 ml
14" 1.0 ml
18" 1.5 ml
22" 2.0 ml
26" 2.75 ml
30" 3.5 ml



Azactam( aztreonam)

Azactam is available in bottles in powder form that must be reconstituted with sterile water, once reconstituted
can be stored upto a month in the fridge then it will lose its effectiveness

Take 500 mg of azactam powder inject into the vial through the seal 5 ml of sterile water or saline this will give a concentration of 10% = to 100 mg per ml, inject IP or IM route every other day for a maximum of five injections

dose 40mg/kg

rough guide as follows

inches of fish ml's of Azactam 10%
6" 0.1 ml
10" 0.2 ml
14" 0.4 ml
18" 0.6 ml
22" 0.8 ml
26" 1.0 ml
over 26" maximum of 1. 5 ml

The some of the above dose tables are referenced from Doctor Eric Johnson, who is without a doubt one of the leading experts in the field and with out who's time, dedication and research, non of the above data would be available, my thanks to Eric for all his efforts

All the above data works for me and others , but is intended as a* rough* but safe guide line, on occasion you
may have to push the limits of safe practice.

Please be aware that the use of antibiotics can have far reaching concequences in both koi health, animal
and human health. and should be regarded as a last resort. Never underestimate the power of a koi to cure
itself without the above, if the conditions are made near perfect a cure is possible with just topical dressings.
The use of anitobotics will set back a valuble abundance of different flora of bacteria in the gut of the koi that
the fish needs to aid digestion,but more importantly multi drug resistant bacteria have become the plague of
the medical profession by avoiding the use of these type of medicines where possible we can help extend the
useful life span of an antibiotic.

There are a lot more things to be taken into consideration when useing an injectable, I.E. is the koi strong
enough to withstand the injection, only experience will give you such answers my advice is either seek expert advice before hand or use a little common sense and proceed cautiously at the start.



Duncan

KoiValley
04-25-2005, 02:19 PM
Looks like you have more than enough information for your injections. RE:Praz: watch you carbonate hardness. Prazi doesn't do well in high KH areas.

KoiCop
04-25-2005, 02:37 PM
FWIW (unless my math's incorrect) your injection of 1 cc of 5% Baytril for a 20" koi is DOUBLE the dosage Duncan recommended on his website. And since Duncan also posted "Baytril has a ph of around 10.5 a large injection in one spot will cause a Reaction that can lead to further complications," I'd cut your dosage in half and keep an close eye on the injection sites.

PS, I checked further and Duncan's recommended doseage of 2.5% Baytril correlates with both Doc Johnson's book and my vet's doseage chart.

Don

gonecadd
04-25-2005, 03:17 PM
Doc J also has the dosages of some meds over there. Baytril I know. :yes:
I had to recheck the dosage a time or two , it says .1cc for 6 inches, you have to watch that decimal point.
Plus the vet where I got my baytril had prefilled the syringes but the needles were too large so I had to figure out how to put the dosage into an insulin syringe and the numbers don't match up with my vets syringe.

Lee B
04-25-2005, 03:25 PM
Just for Grins and Giggles, if you go to Duncan's site, that sheet on antibiotic/injection doses was designed to get printed and laminated . . . it will make a handy addition to anyone's reference material.

Lee

KoiValley
04-25-2005, 03:43 PM
There've been several cases reportedly using the 10% Baytril at the 2.27% dosage level with no ill effect. (doc J was one...) Never done that but I've used the 5% as 2.27% many many times. :eek: :eek:

KoiCop
04-25-2005, 04:05 PM
There've been several cases reportedly using the 10% Baytril at the 2.27% dosage level with no ill effect. (doc J was one...) Never done that but I've used the 5% as 2.27% many many times. :eek: :eek:had heard that Baytril was forgiving re: doseage error, but 400% OD's with no complications?

Guess the only reason to use a chart, then, would be to save on cc's/$$.

:thinking: Don

auntiesue
04-25-2005, 06:24 PM
I'm not sure if the use of Baytril being so widespread is causing some resistance to it's use, but I now commonly use the 2% dose recommended using the 5% Baytril for the 1st injection, then follow up with 1 1/2 dose for the remaining. I don't even mess with the recommended dose anymore. I've done this over the last year with many many fish after I've seen no improvement of the ulcer and have never had an adverse side effects even in fish at the 5-6 inch size. I've seen injection site irritation on occasion, but I've had that happen when using the recommended dose (1/2 recommended dose for 5% solution). The lower dose simply isn't effective anymore in my experience.

KoiCop
04-25-2005, 09:26 PM
thanks, that's really good to know information.

Had one koi that Baytril didn't seem to be working on, so Doc Hildreth switched to Nuflor. 2 injections a week apart and EOP. Don

auntiesue
04-26-2005, 10:37 AM
had heard that Baytril was forgiving re: doseage error, but 400% OD's with no complications?

Guess the only reason to use a chart, then, would be to save on cc's/$$.

:thinking: Don

With Baytril, IMHO, the "chart's" are simply a base-line to work from. There are many variables like weight of the fish, general health of the fish and the severity of the ulcer. So I suggest starting with the "recommended" doses and after some experience using your antibiotic of choice, move up from there, but cautiously. I have never needed or dared to use more than double the recommended dose for Baytril. I have, however, moved onto a stronger antibiotic such as Naxcel or Azactam (sp).

Gallagher
04-26-2005, 08:39 PM
I have to say that to me a dose of 1cc of 5% baytril is not extreme. First off, if you think of a 6" fish (who's rec dose is .1 of 2.27% baytril) and how it compares, in weight to a 20" fish I'm sure it's at least 20X heavier, so it warrants a much larger dose.
My experience with my Kumonryu (which was barely 6") was that it didn't respond until it's dose was doubled. this led me to the conclusion that 1cc of 5% baytril was a starting point rather than a doubling of the rec dose!
Here are the updated pics after 3 injections over 4 days.
The first pic is prior to the 2nd injection, where as the 2nd pic shows the ulcer prior to the 3rd injection.
The 3rd pic is the fish in recovery after the 3rd injection.
Do you think he's showing any improvement.
Jim

auntiesue
04-26-2005, 11:10 PM
Yes, I see the red decreasing. It does look like this fish will need the EOD doses though. I wouldn't hold back just yet. Still a ways to go.

KoiCop
04-27-2005, 12:09 AM
Do you think he's showing any improvement.
Jimnot only don't I see any improvement, it appears to me that you used the same photograph for all three shots? Same highlights, same shadows and same veining in all three pix; only changes are the magnification/cropping.

So, did I pass the test, Jim? Or has today's stress taken me clear around the bend? Don

auntiesue
04-27-2005, 12:56 AM
Second picture has a hand in it :D: Look closely at the actual redness of the ulcer. I see it receding.

Blammo
04-27-2005, 03:49 AM
You can use Baytril 27, 5 or 10.
Antibiotics are dosed MG/Kg .
A 14 inch female chagoi will weigh more than a 22 inch male bikkalgoi :p:

It's real hard to screw up with Baytril but ya get Azactam or Gentacin and you better have the numbers right.

I

Gallagher
04-27-2005, 10:34 AM
What a keen eye you have Koicop. I posted the wrong pics, when I get home I'll try again.
Jim

KoiCop
04-27-2005, 01:07 PM
What a keen eye you have Koicop. I posted the wrong pics, when I get home I'll try again.
JimWhew! Went to bed last night and felt kinda bad about my post. Glad to know I hadn't gone batty.

Best of luck on your treatment regime. :) Don

auntiesue
04-28-2005, 12:44 AM
What a keen eye you have Koicop. I posted the wrong pics, when I get home I'll try again.
Jim

How did that hand get into the second picture? LOL!! I need more sleep!!! Oi ve!!!

phil hunter
04-28-2005, 12:27 PM
Hi,

A few months back, I had a Sanke with a similar sore. I put the fish in quarantine and injected 1cc of 5% baytril. I have done this many, many times, so I am not a beginner when it comes to injections. The next morning the koi was dead. After double checking, I realized that I had used the 2.27% injection tables with 5% Baytril. Now, can I say for sure that the Baytril dosage kill the koi? No. But since the fish was swimming and eating normally, I have reason to believe that was the case. My point to all of this, is to make sure that you use the charts that have been posted here, and make sure that you double check all dosages before injecting.


Phil

auntiesue
04-28-2005, 12:57 PM
Anytime you inject a koi with anything the risk exists that the fish will sucomb to either the injection itself or the handling. I've lost only one and that was at the recommended dose at the recommended %% of Baytril. So you are right, it is hard to know for sure.

KNR
04-28-2005, 02:05 PM
Ugly wound.....I see where you cleaned wound... Did you treat with iodine or Bentadine and seal while you had her under? Kay

phil hunter
04-28-2005, 02:52 PM
Hi Sue,

This is the first time that I have lost a koi after injecting it, in over 15 years of koi keeping, so naturally i was shocked to see that the koi had died. I did not do a necropsy, so I will never know for sure what killed the koi. You can be sure that I will pay much closer attention to the percentage of the Baytril and the inection dosage tables from now on. Thanks for the feedback.


Phil

Eluned
04-28-2005, 05:20 PM
Also - know how fish length was determined for the table you are following, especially for smaller koi. When benching koi, the tail is included, but the standard for vets is to exclude the tail (since doses are based on weight).

Blammo
04-28-2005, 06:07 PM
Hi Sue,

This is the first time that I have lost a koi after injecting it, in over 15 years of koi keeping, so naturally i was shocked to see that the koi had died. I did not do a necropsy, so I will never know for sure what killed the koi. You can be sure that I will pay much closer attention to the percentage of the Baytril and the inection dosage tables from now on. Thanks for the feedback.


Phil Phil.. You can dose a relatively healthy (minimally septic) fish with Baytril at a 10X overdose.
I've used 10% at a 2.7 dose with no issues ( other than my buzz:rolleyes: )

Once the renal system is compromizzed the koi is done.

phil hunter
04-28-2005, 08:32 PM
Hi Blammo,

Thanks for the Info. The koi in question did not have a large sore, so I was quite supprised by its death. I guess stuff just happens sometimes.

Phil