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Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:15 AM
A lot of people who need to treat with Potassium permanganate fear doing so for the lack of confidence or the fear that they may wipe out their entire population of koi. I do want to state first that I have to give credit to Doug Ward aka Blammo who has helped me out so much. This article is also not intended for the individual who has a degree in chemistry is a biologist or has their own koi business. It is intented for the pond owner who knows they need to learn how to use PP but are terrified to. I hope that this will give you the confidence and the know how when the time comes for you to use it.

The purpose of this thread is to put this in laymans terms and help the person who needs to treat with Potassium permanganate gain the confidence to use it safely. First off lets get a couple of terms down. You will sometimes here it refered to here as a pp treatment or a pp dip. They are different a pp treatment or shotgun treatment is often used to get your water back or clean it up. It also serves the purpose of treating the entire water system if a problem REQUIRES the use of PP. The PP dip is to treat at a higher dose for koi or fish that are heavily infested or a individual fish that has been properly diagnosed. Potassium permanganate will treat several things among them are Costia,Trichodina, Epistylis, Bacteria, fungus ,flukes and fish lice.

Spring is coming and some of you have had that novel idea of shotgunning your pond to rid it of all the nasties and get your water ready for spring.
PP will do the trick. So lets get started.

First and foremost you can not go into this half-cocked you need to be prepared so here is a list of items you will need.

Rubber Gloves
Measuring devices
airstones
Tubs if doing a dip
Orp meter (if you have one)
Hydogen Peroxide (MANDATORY)
Safety Glasses
Alarm or timer


Lets get started on how to do a dip

Important: The below information is for usage of Permoxyn a liguid concentrate form of Potassium permanganate.This is not the same dosage as needed crystal or powder form.

Note when using crystal pp or powder form do not do the dips for the same time as the liquid my thread is on the liquid dip not the crystal
Step 1
Get your items together and carefully measure 5 gallons of water into your tub

Step 2
Calculate the correct dose Potassium permanganate. I do a dip of 10mg/L and I used a liquid concentrate (because I had it) most of you will be using it in crystal or powder form. The permoxyn (Potassium permanganate) is made by Kordon. I pour a little into a measuring cup and use a 30 ml syringe to measure 10ml or 1 teaspoon/5 gallons.
Update when using powder or crystal form the 10mg/L does NOT apply the tank,quarantine and pond whole treatment is 1-1/2 ppm (parts per million) and a dip is 200 PPM.

Step 3 place the airstone in the tub

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:28 AM
Update when using powder or crystal form the 10mg/L does NOT apply the tank,quarantine and pond whole treatment is 1-1/2 ppm (parts per million) and a dip is 200 PPM.Note that when doing a 200 ppm dip roarks site states that some people only do these for 180 seconds. Use your own judgement here.



Step 4
If you have a ORP meter put it in the tub on the side with the probe tip fully submersed. Which is used to measure the effictiveness of water disinfection or when the pp is at a substanial level

Step 5
I then inject the fluid into the water. The water will turn a bright purple like grape kool aid.

Step 6
Place your fish in the tub

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:35 AM
Step 7
Set your timer for 30-45 minutes if it is your first time try 30 minutes
Now you get to baby sit. Watch the fish for signs of stress. They will do funny things especially if they are ate up with bugs. They will back up , roll around and thrash. If they start gasping for air that is a bad thing use a couple of drops of the peroxide to neutralize the treatment and return them to their home asap. This is where the Orp benifits you it will allow you to monitor when you have too much pp in the tub. The pp will turn a tea color when it has lost its effectiveness.

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:40 AM
Step 8
When the timer goes off get them out.
When you use the net to transfer them back observe around the fins, mouth area and general body. You should see some brown staining and if you do you blasted some bugs. Your done that was not so hard now was it. Put your heart back in your chest and watch the improvement on your fish. You just saved your buddies life.

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:48 AM
Now a couple of things you will see certain koi react differently. The Doitsu (scaleless) can be burnt a little quicker then one with Scales. Also metallic koi really do not like this and react sometimes pretty wild.

Now lets talk about treating your system without blowing out your bio filter.
Update when using powder or crystal form the 10mg/L does NOT apply the tank,quarantine and pond whole treatment is 1-1/2 ppm (parts per million) and a dip is 200 PPM.Note when doing dips Roarks states on his site that some people only do 200ppm dips for 180 seconds.
You can safely treat you system with a 5mg/L mixture. This treatment will turn a tea or light brown color when the PP has run its course. Do not add de clorinator after PP has run its course if you plan on a follow up treatment. If you feel uncomfortable running this through the bead filter then set you valve to recirculate or use this setting when shotgunning the system with a 10 mg/L treatment.

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:55 AM
Treating a pond to clean the water or get it ready for spring.

If you have fish in the pond then follow the MFG. reccomended dosage.
If you are blasting it to rid it of mulm or dietris or dead fish,birds and potentially harmful bacteria then you use a solution that stays purple for a period of 4 hours. Do Not run this through your bio filter. You are going to notice that the first batch or so might turn brown rather quickly your water is full of garbage that the pp is working on. Well I hope this post is benificial to some. I also hope that I worded it to where you can understand it. And if you are doing you first treatment at a decent hour ask for help there are people here who will be there for you. I am also putting below this a article from a university to tell you a little about pp. Do not forget to do your water changes. I do 50% some do it differently but this works for me.


"Use of Potassium Permanganate to Control External Infections of Ornamental Fish <SUP>1</SUP> (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA027/lFOOTNOTE_1)

<SUP>Ruth Francis-Floyd and RuthEllen Klinger</SUP><SUP>2</SUP> (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FA027/lFOOTNOTE_2)<SUP>

Introduction

Many disease problems of ornamental fish begin as external infections. If uncontrolled, the infections may become systemic, resulting in death of the fish. Correct use of potassium permanganate can effectively control many bacterial, parasitic and fungal agents before systemic infections become established, often eliminating the need for antibiotic therapy. The fish owner saves money because use of expensive antibiotics is decreased, thereby decreasing the incidence of resistant bacterial strains. In the ornamental trade, correct use of potassium permanganate at the onset of an infection can also speed the movement of fish as they do not need to be held for lengthy (often 10-14 day) antibiotic treatments.

What is Potassium Permanganate?

Potassium permanganate (KMnO<SUB>4) is an oxidizing agent that has been used for many years in aquaculture. It is also used in water conditioning systems and in the plumbing industry. As an oxidizer, it is able to chemically "burn up" organic material. This includes undesirable organic matter such as bacteria, parasites, and fungus, as well as desirable material such as gill tissue and mucus. Because the chemical cannot distinguish between desirable and undesirable organic matter, it is up to the individual to use the chemical in a manner that results in maximum benefit and minimum harm to treated fish.

Color Change Associated with Potassium Permanganate Use

When potassium permanganate is active (in its unoxidized form), treated water turns a pinkish-purple color. As the chemical is "deactivated" (by oxidizing organic material), the water color changes to yellow or muddy brown. This color change is an important tool when monitoring chemical treatment (discussed below); however, this may make potassium permanganate undesirable for use in display tanks, exhibits, or ornamental ponds. As with many chemicals used in water, potassium permanganate is harmful to plants and invertebrates.

Use of Potassium Permanganate

For most fish, potassium permanganate can be administered at a concentration of 2 mg/L as a long-term bath (four-hour minimum) in fresh water or salt water systems. Potassium permanganate is also reasonably safe to use in recirculating systems and has minimal impact on biofilters when used at 2 mg/L. Treated water should retain the purple coloration for at least four hours.

There is extensive information on the use of potassium permangante in freshwater systems, but much less is known about its effect in marine systems. Fish culturists should run a small bioassay before treating marine fish.

Some fish, including certain Lake Malawi cichlids, are sensitive to potassium permanganate and lower concentrations (1 mg/L) may be safer. A small experiment run by the authors on a cichlid production facility in southeast Florida demonstrated that 2 mg/L KMnO4 for four hours was safe for common cichlids. The fish owner can determine species sensitivity by observing the behavior of the fish during treatment. This is especially important when treating a species for the first time. If fish react adversely, immediate action (such as diluting the chemical with fresh water) should be taken.

Because potassium permanganate is deactivated by organic matter, it may be necessary to increase the amount added to ponds or other systems where organic material has been allowed to accumulate. A safe way of accomplishing this is to add potassium permanganate to the system in 2 mg/L increments. If water color changes from purple to brown in less than four hours from the start of the first treatment, an additional 2 mg/L should be added. If a total application of 6 mg/L potassium permanganate does not result in maintenance of the purple color for at least four hours, the system should be cleaned. Most of the organisms that are treated with potassium permanganate thrive in an organically rich environment; therefore, improved sanitation can have a tremendous impact on treatment efficacy.

Potassium permanganate can also be used as a short-term bath at concentrations of 10 mg/L for 30 minutes. At this concentration, careful observation of fish is mandatory to avoid mortality. This is a convenient treatment when fish are being removed from ponds and brought into buildings for sorting and shipping. Following a potassium permanganate treatment with a low concentration (2-10 ppt) of salt (sodium chloride) as a semipermanent treatment for several days or weeks (depending on species treated), can be beneficial. This combination is particularly effective in minimizing Columnaris infections (see UF/IFAS Fact Sheet FA-11, Columnaris Disease) after handling fish.

Potassium permanganate can be used as a surface disinfectant at concentrations of 10 mg/L (30-60 minutes contact time) to 500 mg/L (30 seconds contact time) in a fish room or hatchery, however, quaternary ammonium compounds are better suited to this purpose. Potassium permanganate will kill bacterial, fungal and many parasitic agents, but it is not viricidal.

Frequency of Treatment

As mentioned above, potassium permanganate is an indiscriminate oxidizer, and as such, can burn gill tissue and mucus of treated fish if too much chemical is applied. A good rule of thumb to prevent excessive damage to fish is to avoid treating them with potassium permanganate more than once a week. If a chemical treatment is needed for a condition that requires more frequent application, such as treatment for an outbreak of "Ich" (Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, see UF/IFAS Extension Circular 920), potassium permanganate is not a good choice.

Treatment Failure

Poor efficacy following use of potassium permanganate is usually caused by one of three factors: (1) incorrect or incomplete diagnosis; (2) incorrect calculation or measurement of amount of chemical needed; and (3) excessive organic material in the system resulting in rapid degradation of the chemical. Any time treatment failure occurs, sick fish should be submitted to a diagnostic laboratory for an accurate diagnosis. Volume of the water treated, accuracy of calculations to determine treatment rate, and accurate measurement (by weight) of chemical used are essential for delivery of an appropriate chemical dose. As mentioned above, an excessive amount of organic matter in the system will result in rapid deactivation of potassium permanganate, and therefore contact time with active chemical will be inadequate for effective treatment. This is often a problem in heavily stocked ponds.

Determining the Amount of Potassium Permanganate to Use

To calculate the amount of chemical required, a simple formula can be used:

Amount of Chemical = Volume × Conversion Factor × Treatment RateIf the pond or tank volume is measured in gallons, the conversion factor is 0.0038 and the answer will be given in grams (see Table 1 for other conversion factors).

For a treatment rate of 2 mg/L, this formula would be:

Grams of Chemical = Gallons Treated × 0.0038 × 2 mg/LTherefore, to treat a 250-gallon vat, the grams of potassium permanganate needed are:

Grams needed = (250 gal) × (0.0038) × (2 mg/L) = 1.9 gramsAn inexpensive gram scale can be obtained by purchasing a dietary scale at your local grocery store or pharmacy. One level teaspoon of potassium permanganate weighs about 7.0 grams.

Table 1. Common Conversion Factors for Use in Calculation of Amount of Chemical to Use in a Unit Volume of Water for a Concentration of 1 ppm (1 mg/L).

</SUP></SUB><TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=2 width=624 border=1><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>Units </SUP></SUB>



</TD><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>
Conversion Factor </SUP></SUB>






</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>grams/gallon </SUP></SUB>



</TD><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>
0.0038 </SUP></SUB>






</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>pounds/acre-foot </SUP></SUB>



</TD><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>
2.72 </SUP></SUB>






</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>grams/cubic foot </SUP></SUB>



</TD><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>
0.0283 </SUP></SUB>






</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>pounds/cubic foot </SUP></SUB>



</TD><TD vAlign=center width="50%" bgColor=#ffffff><SUP><SUB>
0.000062 </SUP></SUB>






</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SUP><SUB>

Use of a Stock Solution

An alternative method of measuring potassium permanganate is to mix a stock solution. A stock solution is a concentrated solution of chemical from which small amounts can be taken to treat tanks as needed. This is useful when either multiple tanks or multiple treatments are needed. An easy way to make up a stock solution for potassium permanganate is to purchase a one-gallon bottle of distilled water, weigh 285 grams of potassium permanganate, add it to the solution, and mix thoroughly. This stock solution will deliver a dose of 1 mg/L when delivered at a rate of one drop per gallon. Therefore, to achieve the desired concentration of 2 mg/L, the stock solution can be delivered at a rate of two drops per gallon. The stock solution should be stored in a cool, dark area and be replaced annually.

When treating larger systems, it is useful to remember that 20 drops are equal to 1 milliliter (ml), or one cubic centimeter (cc) if measuring the liquid with a syringe. Therefore, 1 ml of stock solution will treat ten gallons of water with a concentration of 2 mg/L.

Safety Precautions When Handling Potassium Permanganate

Potassium permanganate is fairly safe to handle, however, all chemicals should be treated with respect. Potassium permanganate will easily stain clothing and skin. Brown discoloration of skin is not painful, but it may be unsightly and takes several days to disappear. Brown stains to clothing can be permanent. Protective eye wear, gloves and clothing are recommended when handling potassium permanganate.

Fish farmers and aquarists do occasionally mix chemicals. It is important that formalin and potassium permanganate are NEVER mixed as the combination can be explosive.

Summary

Potassium permanganate is an oxidizer which can be used to "disinfect" the external surfaces of fish. It effectively removes most external parasites, as well as fungal and bacterial agents. Most fish can be treated by prolonged immersion in a 2 mg/L potassium permanganate solution (water must retain a purple color for at least four hours), although some species may be sensitive to it and may not tolerate a full strength (2 mg/L) bath. Because of its harsh oxidizing properties, potassium permanganate should not be applied to fish more frequently than once per week or mortality may result. It is safe to use in marine and recirculating systems at 2 mg/L. Potassium permanganate can stain skin and clothing so care is suggested when handling it. The chemical should NEVER be mixed directly with formalin as an explosion or fire could result.



Footnotes

1. This document is FA37, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida. Original publication date June, 1997. Reviewed July, 2002. Visit the EDIS Web Site at </SUP></SUB><SUP><SUB>http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu</SUP></SUB> (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/)<SUP><SUB>.

2. Ruth Francis-Floyd, Professor, and RuthEllen Klinger, former Biological Scientist, Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences (College of Veterinary Medicine) and Department of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences, University of Florida, Gainesville, 32611.





The Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences (IFAS) is an Equal Employment Opportunity - Affirmative Action Employer authorized to provide research, educational information and other services only to individuals and institutions that function without regard to race, creed, color, religion, age, disability, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, political opinions or affiliations. For information on obtaining other extension publications, contact your county Cooperative Extension Service office.

Florida Cooperative Extension Service / Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences / University of Florida / Larry R. Arrington, Interim Dean



Copyright Information

This document is copyrighted by the University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences (UF/IFAS) for the people of the State of Florida. UF/IFAS retains all rights under all conventions, but permits free reproduction by all agents and offices of the Cooperative Extension Service and the people of the State of Florida. Permission is granted to others to use these materials in part or in full for educational purposes, provided that full credit is given to the UF/IFAS, citing the publication, its source, and date of publication."

</SUP></SUB>

Rita in Il
02-12-2005, 06:22 AM
Thank you so much for the information....I've always wanted to know how this was done. :yes: Your step by step procedure was definetly laid out for even a beginner pond enthusiast. :cool:

I am assuming the permoxyn is more expensive and that is why people would use the powder form, correct? I for one would not be afraid to use the liquid as a first time experience with PP but the dose of 10ml/1tsp to 5 gallons would take many bottles for a substantial size pond. :eek: What is the dose using the powder form of PP?

Another question....what if you don't have an orp meter? How would you know if you have reach the substantial level of effectiveness....by the stress of the fish (too much) or the loss of the purple color?

I'm sorry about the questions....it may be addressed in the article you included, but it's 4:15 am and I just can't read some of that small print right now. :eek:

With all your great information, I still do not have enough self confidence in myself to do this alone....first time would have to be with someone that has done it before. I'm scared! :(

Great information here....thank you for helping us newbies out!! :yes:

khoffman19
02-12-2005, 09:21 AM
Thanks! You answered my questions before I asked them. This is a must for the library!
One more, I have a bottle of Pond Guard. How much of it should I use for a dip?

Sarge
02-12-2005, 09:31 AM
Thank you so much for the information....I've always wanted to know how this was done. :yes: Your step by step procedure was definetly laid out for even a beginner pond enthusiast. :cool:

I am assuming the permoxyn is more expensive and that is why people would use the powder form, correct? I for one would not be afraid to use the liquid as a first time experience with PP but the dose of 10ml/1tsp to 5 gallons would take many bottles for a substantial size pond. :eek: What is the dose using the powder form of PP?

Another question....what if you don't have an orp meter? How would you know if you have reach the substantial level of effectiveness....by the stress of the fish (too much) or the loss of the purple color?

I'm sorry about the questions....it may be addressed in the article you included, but it's 4:15 am and I just can't read some of that small print right now. :eek:

With all your great information, I still do not have enough self confidence in myself to do this alone....first time would have to be with someone that has done it before. I'm scared! :(

Great information here....thank you for helping us newbies out!! :yes:
First thing let me reiterate that this is a VERY DANGEROUS product if not used properly. :eek: :eek:

Secondly, you can get PP rather cheap through bottled water dealers such as Rainsoft, Culligan, etc. :yes: :yes:

Now, on to treatments, I will PM Roark and Roddy and ask them to kindly post their procedures as these two have a plethora of knowledge in the use of PP. :yes: :yes:

If you are going to use PP in your pond, you need to have an exact knowledge of your gallonage. ORP will assist in ensuring you do not over do it, however, if you know you gallonage - and you dose properly with adequate aeration you will be fine.

ALWAYS HAVE HYDROGEN PEROXIDE readily available as well - it will neutralize the PP rather quickly. If you are doing a cleaning or treatment process - do not use HP unless you have an emergency as it takes apprx seven days for HP to leave your system, thus causing problems if you treatments.

Alright, I will leave it to the masters from there - they will be able to give more info than any of us.

sweetpea
02-12-2005, 09:40 AM
Sarge,
I swear that when Roark walks by, little
poofs of purple waft up from his shoes!! :yes: :D: :yes: :D:
Just like Pigpen and the dust!!

Roark and Doc Roddy are amazing when it comes to PP!!!

Sarge
02-12-2005, 09:44 AM
Sarge,
I swear that when Roark walks by, little
poofs of purple waft up from his shoes!! :yes: :D: :yes: :D:
Just like Pigpen and the dust!!

Roark and Doc Roddy are amazing when it comes to PP!!!Yes they are :yes: :yes: I defer to them on this subject. :bow: :bow:

Lee B
02-12-2005, 09:44 AM
You don't have to have peroxide available: any dechlor will neutralize PP on contact. In fact, Doc Conrad has done tests showing that peroxide will drop the ORP so rapidly that it can shock the fish, causing death. Sodium Thiosulphate or Amquel or ChlorAm-X will *also* neutralize on contact, but without the more radical ORP drop of peroxide. Sodium Thio (ST) is preferred.

Lee

Sarge
02-12-2005, 09:51 AM
You don't have to have peroxide available: any dechlor will neutralize PP on contact. In fact, Doc Conrad has done tests showing that peroxide will drop the ORP so rapidly that it can shock the fish, causing death. Sodium Thiosulphate or Amquel or ChlorAm-X will *also* neutralize on contact, but without the more radical ORP drop of peroxide. Sodium Thio (ST) is preferred.

Lee
Lee, thanks for the additional info - hopefully Roddy and Roark will weigh in on this one.

JPR
02-12-2005, 10:22 AM
All needs to be kept in perspective folks- PP should ONLY be used in a quarantine or hospital tank situation unless absolutely necessary. If you have to use it in a pond due to runaway parasite problems ( trichodina, costia or chillo) and you have good algae growth, you need to check phosphorus levels before and after treatment ( one and two days afterwards). Many ponds are relying on algae as a part filter/ part oxygen provider and the owner doesn’t realize it. A PP treatment will reduce photo synthetic rates for a time. Academic studies have shown that PP will also reduce bacteria count ( free swimming count) but then actually increase the count days later when compared to control ponds. So this technique is just cosmetic. Find the SOURCE of the problem in the pond and correct it and forget the band-aid approach to subsistence koi keeping
And finally adding hydrogen peroxide to a PP reaction is absolutely nutzz in my humble opinion for several reasons- don't do it unless the fish are dying and you have nothing to loose.
I use an ORP meter for every dip/ pond visit and treatment I do. And have since 1990. Watch the meter as you add hydrogen peroxide, that should be enough to convince you not to add hydrogen peroxide. JR

Lee B
02-12-2005, 11:54 AM
Agreed, JR: the only time I would terminate a treatment with ST (or anything else) is because there was an adverse reaction. O'wise, the best way is just to let it expend itself naturally. I've always found that the "brown" is gone by the next day, but if I really need it GONE for some reason or other, a bag of AC will clean it up in a jiffy.

Lee

tucker
02-12-2005, 12:03 PM
Great thread...it should be put in the Library for reference.
I had a problem in my goldfish pond, and after many emails to and from Roddy was able to clear up the problem. You have to respect the chemical, and what it can do, and follow all guidelines suggested here.
I do hope Roddy and Roark will post to this thread.
Karyl

vipldy
02-12-2005, 12:21 PM
Could someone post how to do a dip with powder PP :eek: I have 1 sick fish and I am just THINKING about doing this as a last resort. :yes:



Marie :)

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 01:11 PM
Is it a liquid or powder?
Thanks! You answered my questions before I asked them. This is a must for the library!
One more, I have a bottle of Pond Guard. How much of it should I use for a dip?

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 01:13 PM
[<SUB><SUP>Amount of Chemical = Volume × Conversion Factor × Treatment RateIf the pond or tank volume is measured in gallons, the conversion factor is 0.0038 and the answer will be given in grams (see Table 1 for other conversion factors).

For a treatment rate of 2 mg/L, this formula would be:

Grams of Chemical = Gallons Treated × 0.0038 × 2 mg/LTherefore, to treat a 250-gallon vat, the grams of potassium permanganate needed are:

Grams needed = (250 gal) × (0.0038) × (2 mg/L) = 1.9 gramsAn inexpensive gram scale can be obtained by purchasing a dietary scale at your local grocery store or pharmacy. One level teaspoon of potassium permanganate weighs about 7.0 grams.

Table 1. Common Conversion Factors for Use in Calculation of Amount of Chemical to Use in a Unit Volume of Water for a Concentration of 1 ppm (1 mg/L). </SUP></SUB>QUOTE=vipldy]Could someone post how to do a dip with powder PP :eek: I have 1 sick fish and I am just THINKING about doing this as a last resort. :yes:



Marie :)[/QUOTE]

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:28 PM
This it true that is why i said a couple of drops flick it in with your finger and return fish to main holding asap
You don't have to have peroxide available: any dechlor will neutralize PP on contact. In fact, Doc Conrad has done tests showing that peroxide will drop the ORP so rapidly that it can shock the fish, causing death. Sodium Thiosulphate or Amquel or ChlorAm-X will *also* neutralize on contact, but without the more radical ORP drop of peroxide. Sodium Thio (ST) is preferred.

Lee

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 04:35 PM
Clove oil imop is a heck of alot more dangerous than pp. It is used to KILL fish humanly. Using pp to kill fish would be short of sadistic. If you follow the directions on mg/L or ppm odds are you will be just fine. What becomes dangerous is when you push the mg/L beyond normal usage.

woodyaht
02-12-2005, 04:43 PM
Excelent thread Koin!!!!!!!

Should be sticky'd!!!!!!!!!!

emmalou
02-12-2005, 04:44 PM
Very well put together Koin..I agree..a sticky for sure..

DarleneD
02-12-2005, 04:54 PM
Just one little bitty teensy tiny thing ... I don't think PP works for flukes :no:

Roddy Conrad
02-12-2005, 05:39 PM
Gee, where to start on this subject?

JR makes several excellent points, explaining his points a bit more may be informative.

Using PP in the main pond is a difficult chore for folks who don't understand PP because the PP seldom lasts long enough to kill parasites unless it is continuously dosed to keep it active long enough, a quite difficult task for those without a lot of PP experience. What JR failed to mention in his suggestion to use PP in a quarantine tank (instead of in the main pond) is that folks with city water can't easily use it there either. The problem is that the city water must be dechlorinated to make it safe for fish, and the dechlorinator wipes out the PP dose. For folks with well water, like JR uses, PP in a quarantine tank works quite well for "some" parasites at proper dosages and treatment times. Then there is the general issue that if the parasites were on the fish in the main pond, and the parasites are killed in the quarantine tank, without dosing the main pond the parasites are still there!

I have pretty much given up on PP as the choice of meds to kill parasites because of all the complications with its use. I prefer Formalin, Supaverm, Dimilin, Proform C, and occasionally salt (in combination with Supaverm). However, in a dirty pond, none of these are very effective because the pond muck and sludge react with all of them too quickly to allow the concentration to be high enough to do the job on the parasites. So my point in passing is that to get an effective parasite kill in a dirty pond is quite difficult if not impossible. Trying to treat in a dirty pond, or at a pond water temperature below 70F, is the usual failure of a parasite control treatment, rather than the choice of which parasite killing medication.

I still use PP to regenerate pond water routinely (instead of water exchange), a practice that very few folks approve or use. Cleaning up the pond with low level PP doses will help any other parasite killing medication be more effective. But this thread is not discussing that subject, at least I don't think it is discussing that subject.

If a ponder is going to use PP, I don't know why they would pay for the concentrated solution instead of the powder itself. The powder is certainly much cheaper, and stable, and not that difficult to buy.

Like Lee and JR say, the instantaneous shock of the drop of the ORP value from ~500 to ~180 of pouring a bunch of hydrogen peroxide in a pond can and does kill the fish more often than the PP dose itself. If you must use the dern peroxide, add a minimum amount, and add it over a few hours, to avoid killing the fish from the shock of peroxide reversal. Sodium thiosulfate is an acceptable reversal chemical, it only drops the ORP to around 400 from wherever you had it with the PP dose.

Koin-Onia
02-12-2005, 05:44 PM
I did not either but all of the data that I read says that it is effective on on the control of diseases caused by monogenetic trematodes (flukes). I will be honest and say I am not really sure about the flukes themselves I never thought that it treated them.
Just one little bitty teensy tiny thing ... I don't think PP works for flukes :no:

Roddy Conrad
02-12-2005, 07:38 PM
As a side point, a quart (16 ounces) of the Kordon Permoxyn solution containing 3.84% potassium permanganate sells for $7, and treats 2500 gallons at 4 ppm PP dose ONCE.

In comparison, if 5 pounds of PP is bought for $50 from AES, treating 2500 gallons at 4 ppm will cost the ponder only 84 cents, instead of $7. And I buy PP in 55 pound pails for $90, so the same 4 ppm dose of 2500 gallons cost me 14 cents, versus $7 to buy the 3.84% solution from Kordon.

I prefer generic chemicals to Kordon high prices any day....

kingkong
02-12-2005, 07:57 PM
Is this math correct? assuming 1 ppm is 1 lb. of pp per 999,999 lbs.of H2O, Would 1 gram per 253 Gal be equal to 1 ppm Now assuming this is correct than 4 ppm would be 4 grams per 253 Gal? I will stop here until next step, Thanks :thinking:

Roddy Conrad
02-12-2005, 08:43 PM
Is this math correct? assuming 1 ppm is 1 lb. of pp per 999,999 lbs.of H2O, Would 1 gram per 253 Gal be equal to 1 ppm Now assuming this is correct than 4 ppm would be 4 grams per 253 Gal? I will stop here until next step, Thanks :thinking:

Let's try the math a slightly different way.

1000 USA gallons weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon times 1000 = 8300 pounds.

8300 pounds times 454 grams per pound = 3.77 million grams in 1000 USA gallons.

Therefore 1 ppm dose for 1000 gallons is 3.77 grams, since we have 3.77 million grams of water.

4 ppm dose for 1000 gallons is 3.77 times 4 = 15 grams.

4 ppm for 250 gallons is the same dose as 1 ppm for 1000 gallons which is 3.77 grams.

By the way, 1 grams per 253 USA gallons calculates according to my math as 1.04 ppm, but I may be rounding off the calculation somewhere, the difference is not worth any argument!

The actual dose is not nearly as critical as understanding cause and effect when working with PP dosing in ponds. I have been using PP on a daily basis in most of my ponds for many years (that is why I buy it in those 55 pound pails!). The dose I use for water cleanup is highly dependent on all kinds of seasonal factors, temperatures, situations, and so on. The water here currently cost $10 per 1000 gallons, if I did a 100% water change weekly as so many of the high end ponders advise, my water bill for my ponding hobby would be $100 per week or $52,000 per year. So I clean it up with PP and find that a much cheaper way to do ponding at our house in our ponds. It is not a process many should consider; the pitfalls of using PP for that purpose are many and varied. With the PP cleanup, I keep my water bill around $70 per month in the winter, $100 a month spring and fall, and $150 to $200 a month in the summer. While that is not cheap at around $1200 per year or so, it is a lot better than $52,000 per year! So I consider a 55 pound pail of PP that last me two to three years a bargain at $90.

Sarge
02-12-2005, 08:45 PM
Roddy, is a level teaspoon equivilent to one gram (apprx) of PP? or is it .5 ppm per 1000 gallons?

Roddy Conrad
02-12-2005, 09:04 PM
Sarge, I weighed several sources of PP powder in 14 brands of teaspoons and measuring teaspoons. If I carefully wiped the powder level with the top of the teaspoon, the amount of powder that fit in those variety of teaspoons varied from 5 grams to 9 grams, with typical values of 7 grams. If I heaped the powder in the teaspoon, the weight of a teaspoon of powder varied from 9 grams to 12 grams. I wrote a paper on it once. I also weighed salt the same way, the variation with kinds of salt and teaspoons is even worse than PP powder.

The point is that teaspoons are a very rough measure of PP powder, or anything else. Then there is the fact that even measuring teaspoons off the shelf in stores in my town vary a factor of two, yes 100%, in actual volume they hold. So be careful out there.

I usually use a gram scale for any critical measurements. So expensive they are not versus the price of nice koi.

Oh, at the typical 7 grams of PP powder per teaspoon, you have about a 2 ppm PP charge if you put a level teaspoon of the powder in 1000 USA gallons.

kingkong
02-12-2005, 09:06 PM
. Back to the math problem it worked. I multiplied 253 gallons x3.77 and it equaled 953.8 close enough. So the fact it worked backwards helped me. Thanks for your help. Just thought if one understood what 1 ppm is derived from, it would help to see through the math OK.

vipldy
02-12-2005, 09:12 PM
Ok so I want to do a dip in 5 gallons of water with the powder PP from PondRx. We have a gram scale, how much pp should we add to the 5 gallons of water??

L5Vegan
02-12-2005, 09:13 PM
5ppm safe for bio filter :eek: :confused: :confused:
That must be some dirty water. :confused: :thinking: :no:

Koin-Onia
02-13-2005, 12:58 AM
I have had someone ask to post a picture of spiderweb lessions and the pink skin lessions associated with costia and/or Trichodina.

stephen
02-13-2005, 08:46 AM
5ppm safe for bio filter :eek: :confused: :confused:
That must be some dirty water. :confused: :thinking: :no:http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10961

JPR - post #3

Koin-Onia
02-14-2005, 12:09 AM
Stephen how long did it take the first batch to start dropping on the ORP and at what point did you add more?
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10961

JPR - post #3

chipmaker
07-05-2005, 11:20 AM
If you want to keep some PP solution on hand why not make up a gal of it at the 2 ppm mix. Its easy to handle and will last for a long time if kept out of sunlight and cool....Comes in handy for lots of things, and with it being a 2 ppm concentration is easy to dose out for smaller containers like a 5 gal dip etc....Use 285 grams of PP added to a gal of distilled water and mix well. Then use 2 drops per gal for a 2ppm ratio. Since 20 drops = 1 ml, and 1 ml will treat 10 gal, its easy to figure out the dose rates needed for larger batches.

An easy to dwon load copy of the papers put out by the U of F is available for downloading in printable form or save to disk at: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu
Look for Fact Sheet(s) FA-37 Use of PP to control external infections of ornamental fish and alo FA-23 The use of PP in fish ponds. One of the papers is what was posted earlier on in this thread but without the HTML markup tags. That website also has a host of other good info on fish keeping and aquaculture.

I dose my pond 2 times a year now weather it needs it or not, and its never looked better, and thats hard to say for most any natural large pond in this area....

Koin-Onia
07-06-2005, 11:08 PM
The main objective of this was to show a very safe way for the entry level hobbiest to obtain a kordon product called permoxycin which is a readily available solution carried at several pet shops nationwide. I totally agree that what you suggested is much better way to do this. However it requires a gram scale which most entry level ponders do not have. The people that have pp on hand in crystal form are ahead of this thread anyway and are doing what you suggested.


If you want to keep some PP solution on hand why not make up a gal of it at the 2 ppm mix. Its easy to handle and will last for a long time if kept out of sunlight and cool....Comes in handy for lots of things, and with it being a 2 ppm concentration is easy to dose out for smaller containers like a 5 gal dip etc....Use 285 grams of PP added to a gal of distilled water and mix well. Then use 2 drops per gal for a 2ppm ratio. Since 20 drops = 1 ml, and 1 ml will treat 10 gal, its easy to figure out the dose rates needed for larger batches.

An easy to dwon load copy of the papers put out by the U of F is available for downloading in printable form or save to disk at: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/)
Look for Fact Sheet(s) FA-37 Use of PP to control external infections of ornamental fish and alo FA-23 The use of PP in fish ponds. One of the papers is what was posted earlier on in this thread but without the HTML markup tags. That website also has a host of other good info on fish keeping and aquaculture.

I dose my pond 2 times a year now weather it needs it or not, and its never looked better, and thats hard to say for most any natural large pond in this area....

Sarge
04-05-2008, 11:23 AM
Bump for Karen - some useful information - but again - BE CAREFUL. I think Roark's site has some very good caculators on the use of PP.

K-Man is purty experienced in its use as well.

nmtsaki
04-05-2008, 05:36 PM
If you were worried about hurting your fish when you treat the whole system, wouldn't it make sense to remove the fish to quarantine, then move them back? (providing you have an adequate quarantine system). You could treat the system, maybe dip the fish separately, if you're treating for a parasite problem, then move them back into the cleaned water system.

According the U of Fl, article, 2mg/L is safe for the biofilter, but another thread posted here, said to bypass your biofilter system. Which is more accurate, or is it a "time" thing? over 4 hours and your biofilter is toast?

A lot of great advice here, but personally, I'm still scared, just because they're "chemicals".

Thanks for explaining alot!

GloriaL
04-07-2008, 10:01 PM
Point of clarification 10ml = TWO(2) teaspoons!

cindy
11-09-2009, 04:45 PM
bumping while I read

KoiValley
11-09-2009, 05:04 PM
bumping while I read

So...............whatcha burnin off?:eek1:

cindy
11-09-2009, 05:07 PM
I'm good (knock on wood)

Was looking at the cold water ich thread.

KoiValley
11-09-2009, 05:13 PM
I'm good (knock on wood)

Was looking at the cold water ich thread.

Ya, I looked at that too. Although logistics is a "bit" of a problem warming the koi up and treating with FMG would be far less stressful for the owner. OTOH, if the pond temp rises as was stated, FMG would do quite well. Ich is one of the few parasites which is still easily eradicated with .6 salt. And salt at those temperatures would be the most appropriate as it can stay in the pond for a couple weeks and catch the succeeding generation of the bug. If the pond temperature rises to 60 or so that is where I'd go.

cindy
11-09-2009, 05:17 PM
I'm learning more about the life cycle and why heat is important.

CHICHI
11-09-2009, 05:38 PM
Parasite Cycles at Low Temps are virtually Unpredictable :eek1: some don`t Complete or delay Completion altogether :eek1: Flukes can and do for instance hibernate ..

Immunity in Koi is compromised to the extent that at 50F no white Blood Cells can be detected so a Double Whammy is levied with the Meds ..

I have used MG&F at 10C and am convinced that Chilo alone is the only Critter remaining which responds to Salt ..

PP I have personally dosed AT 8C ..

65F and above are what is recommended over here generally for Pond Treatments usually though :yes:



http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml#ichlinks

wfhsdemons
04-11-2010, 02:32 PM
Probably not the right place to post but then again I usually dont anyway. I have one fish in the pond that I noticed has an ulcer it is the same one that has had them in the past. the only one that I have noticed. I try to keep things as simple as possible for me. No quarantine, no orp reader and no gram scale. Maybe I am doing my fish and pond an injustice but its the best I can do for now.

The pond is approximately 4000 gallons. I have used pp in the past bu usually not more then 2 tsp per dose and only one dose. Last year it helped cure the ulcer on the above mentionned fish. I put in 2 tsp of PP. It lasted approximately 20 miutes to turn brown.
The fish were fine.
Trying to follow the math above in this thread.
If you should use 1.9 grams per 250 gallons
3.8 grams per 500
7.6 per 1000
15.2 per 2000
30.4 per 4000
------> 1 tsp = 7 grams then 4 tsp = 28 grams

Should I be using 4 tsp each time I dose and see how long it stays pink?

Question is what should I do at this point??? Thanks in advance Toni

sundan
04-11-2010, 03:06 PM
Probably not the right place to post but then again I usually dont anyway. I have one fish in the pond that I noticed has an ulcer it is the same one that has had them in the past. the only one that I have noticed. I try to keep things as simple as possible for me. No quarantine, no orp reader and no gram scale. Maybe I am doing my fish and pond an injustice but its the best I can do for now.

The pond is approximately 4000 gallons. I have used pp in the past bu usually not more then 2 tsp per dose and only one dose. Last year it helped cure the ulcer on the above mentionned fish. I put in 2 tsp of PP. It lasted approximately 20 miutes to turn brown.
The fish were fine.
Trying to follow the math above in this thread.
If you should use 1.9 grams per 250 gallons
3.8 grams per 500
7.6 per 1000
15.2 per 2000
30.4 per 4000
------> 1 tsp = 7 grams then 4 tsp = 28 grams

Should I be using 4 tsp each time I dose and see how long it stays pink?

Question is what should I do at this point??? Thanks in advance Toni

here is what works for me.
low maintience 1 teaspoon per 1000 gallons... clean water, bacteria, ect
high maintience 1 teaspoon per 600 gallons...ulcers, parasite
Most important never treat without having hydrogen peroxide on hand in case gave to much. Always have air flowing, bypass filter.

wfhsdemons
04-11-2010, 04:36 PM
I will keep that advice in mind. Just wondering if I should do it again but use more at a time

CHICHI
04-11-2010, 05:56 PM
I will keep that advice in mind. Just wondering if I should do it again but use more at a time

Checkout Roddy`s info in this Thread :yes: ;)


http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109184&highlight=water+regeneration

Noahsnana
04-11-2010, 07:29 PM
here is what works for me.
low maintience 1 teaspoon per 1000 gallons... clean water, bacteria, ect
high maintience 1 teaspoon per 600 gallons...ulcers, parasite
Most important never treat without having hydrogen peroxide on hand in case gave to much. Always have air flowing, bypass filter.

Always lots of air and bypass the filtration :yes: